Pure Christianity Straight from the Apostle John

by Perry 42 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Perry

  Zechariah 12:10

  The King James Version and the Tanakh both say in Zechariah 12:10, "and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced." When John is writing in John 19:37 and quotes Zechariah 12:10, he has changed it to say, "They shall look on him (instead of me) whom they pierced."
  
  
  John understands Zechariah 12:10 to be a Literal Prophecy plus Literal Fulfillment.

  John is convinced that Jesus is God Himself appearing and living among Israel as a man, as the Messianic person. John then communicates his understanding of the scene he witnessed when Jesus was pierced by the Roman spear. He knew that the Messianic person had to be pierced according the Zechariah 12:10. He believes that Jesus is the Messianic person. When he sees Jesus pierced by the Roman soldier, he understands that moment to be a literal fulfillment of what was predicted in Zechariah 12:10......

  John is not alone in his understanding that the Messianic person is being referred to here. Ancient Jewish sages carried the same understanding. Here are a few quotes found in rabbinic literature:

  Babylonian Talmud Sukkah 52a:

  It's well according to him who explains that the cause (of the mourning) is the slaying of the Messiah the son of Joseph, since that well agrees with the Scripture verse: 'And they shall look upon me, whom they have pierced; and shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son'. 1
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  designs

  Whatever the Gospel of John author imagines or convinces himself of is only relevant if you choose to believe his ideas and interpretations. This particular author picked ideas from several sources, not all Jewish is quite evident. Much of what is credited to Jesus was taught for centuries by the school of the Pharisees, the group of spiritual and philosophical teachers that this Jesus routinely denouces.

  Most ancient religions spun tales of a utopian world free from the hardships of life and the Bible is no different. We are simply past the time of these ancient beliefs. We have advanced through science and reason to tackle the real challenges of life on this planet and that is what we should pursue.
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  Perry

  Still, it is instructive to know what those close to Jesus thought of him. Those of us that that wished to follow Jesus as Jehovah's Witnesses were prevented from doing so in the way that his close associates did through the evil deceptions of the Watchtower.

  If you do not wish to follow Jesus, I respect that. I think Jesus would respect that decision as well. For me, John's connection that he makes draws me closer to the New Testament ideal that Jehovah himself suffered as my savior in the person of his only begotten - Jesus

  For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? (Answer: NONE) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. - Hebrews 1: 5-6
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  mP

  Perry

  Read the remainder of Zech, no where does it mention Jesus by name or title. Its not even talking about a man we call jesus. That scripture has been hijacked simply because it has the word "pierced". Absolutely nothing about Jesus life appears in Zech. Theres no mention of Mary, Bethlehem, apostles, ressurrection, son of god and so on. The author had no knowledge of Jesus in any form. Its unfair and dishonest to imply that those words are in anyway a prophecy.
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  designs

  mp- The NT writers were clever, I will give them that. After you study the evolving messianic views of the Jewish groups you see where Paul and the others picked and chose what they wanted to develop their story line.

  Perry- As you and Stephen point out your Jesus won't respect our decision to not believe he is the Messiah or Christ. The point of the NT Jesus is to return as the supreme judge and destroy and punish all who do not believe in him.

  There is a Jewish faction that also views the Messiah as a warrior/judge who 'strikes the wicked' from the earth. This group gained many followers with the invasion of the Roman armies. It was a normal reaction to the feelings of powerlessness, wanting your 'God' to make things right.
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  mP

  designs

  There is a Jewish faction that also views the Messiah as a warrior/judge who 'strikes the wicked' from the earth. This group gained many followers with the invasion of the Roman armies. It was a normal reaction to the feelings of powerlessness, wanting your 'God' to make things right.

  MP:

  I think you have misrepresented the Romans. You failed to note that the jews caused so much trouble and killing that the Romans had to come to teach them a lesson. If you read your history books you will find that the jews killed tens and hundreds of thousands in their fight for freedom. Naaturally Rome couldnt allow this to happen for obvious reasons.

  Jesus was talking about the false messiahs who did lead many men to fight Rome. The gospels were created after the destruction, they are a commentary on the destructive nature of Judaism and its fanatical belief that they are separate and different. This theme is of course familiar today but we call them Taliban. Theres not much different between their beliefs and its obivous why ancient Judaism and current Islam follow basically the same set of customs and laws.
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  designs

  mp- I would describe the sequence this way. The Jews caused trouble because they were invaded by a foreign power. Imperialistic powers can expect native born freedom fighters as part of the backlash.

  'I am Spartacus!' cries in their various forms continued to be heard throughout the Roman Empire just like Britain experienced centuries later for their imperialistic advances.

  In Judaism two dominate messianic themes emerged- the warrior judge and the emancipator for all of humanity, but with humanity being under the Torah, which St. Paul was against and why the early Jewish converts left the Pauline led Churches.
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  Pterist

  Designs ** The Jesus of the NT has nothing to do with the Jewish Messiah.***

  The Jesus of the NT is the Wisdom of God in the OT. The external immortal deity did nothing in creation without his eternal Spirit and his personified Wisdom.

  Proverbs 8

  27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
  when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
  28 when he established the clouds above
  and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
  29 when he gave the sea its boundary
  so the waters would not overstep his command,
  and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
  30 Then I was constantly [e] at his side.
  I was filled with delight day after day,
  rejoicing always in his presence,
  31 rejoicing in his whole world
  and delighting in mankind.

  1Colossians

  19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

  Shalom
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  designs

  Pt- that is the theory among Christians but it is not supported within Judaism.
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  jgnat

  There wasn't any attempt at creating a "pure" Christianity until the Nicene Council.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John#Authorship

  It is generally accepted that the Book of John was written after the other gospels.

  There is nothing in the text to suggest that John wrote it, whereas John uses his name several times in Revelation. Another suggested author is Lazarus.