@Eden (post 290)
Thanks for your "Pierced him" vs "Pierced me" clarification. That's in agreement with post 103 here.
4 th century Christianity is the impure Christianity.
Pure Christianity Straight from the Apostle John
by Perry 42 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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DATA-DOG
I know one thing, it blows the WTBTS's teaching of an invisible return out of the water. The disciples saw Jesus, he floated up and disappeared. He will come back in the same manner, just in the opposite way. He will appear and then come down.
Then again, no man has seen God and yet lived.. So how do you explain that?
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JWB
Some food for thought:
www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/gospel_john.html
("11. Doctrine of the Logos in Philo’s Writings":)
www.iep.utm.edu/philo/ -
mP
designs
mp- I would describe the sequence this way. The Jews caused trouble because they were invaded by a foreign power. Imperialistic powers can expect native born freedom fighters as part of the backlash.
'I am Spartacus!' cries in their various forms continued to be heard throughout the Roman Empire just like Britain experienced centuries later for their imperialistic advances.
In Judaism two dominate messianic themes emerged- the warrior judge and the emancipator for all of humanity, but with humanity being under the Torah, which St. Paul was against and why the early Jewish converts left the Pauline led Churches.
mP:
You seem to be ilinformed. The jews were causing trouble outside Judea. They killed hundreds of thousands of non jews. Many were part of a major racist assult on non jews.
I am listing below one of the bad ones, but its obvious why the Romans had to come to Judea and destroy Jerusalem. The racist overtones of Judaism were the principal cause. We see the same madness in Islam today. A power like Rome cant allow 240,000 in just one provence to be killed by rebels.
Again religion was the cause of down right evil. It was not a heroic rebellion in a just cause. Lastly we might not like to admit it but life under Rome was better than life under a Jewish king. The Bible itself admits this in the return from Babylon narration. Most jews didnt want to return, and wwho can blame them they live in a theocratic dictatorship. Lets not forget the Northern tribes broke away becaus wise King Solomon taxed the shit out of them and his son wanted to increase the tax.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitos_War
Dio Cassius states of Jewish insurrectionaries:
"'Meanwhile the Jews in the region of Cyrene had put one Andreas at their head and were destroying both the Romans and the Greeks. They would cook their flesh, make belts for themselves of their entrails, anoint themselves with their blood, and wear their skins for clothing. Many they sawed in two, from the head downwards. Others they would give to wild beasts and force still others to fight as gladiators. In all, consequently, two hundred and twenty thousand perished. In Egypt, also, they performed many similar deeds, and in Cyprus under the leadership of Artemio. There, likewise, two hundred and forty thousand perished. For this reason no Jew may set foot in that land, but even if one of them is driven upon the island by force of the wind, he is put to death. Various persons took part in subduing these Jews, one being Lusius, who was sent by Trajan." [3]
The Jewish Encyclopedia says this about the Cyrene massacres:
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designs
mp- gosh I guess they should have just rolled over and wet themselves. Jewish groups in and after the Dispora collectivized and reformed into powerful entities to survive among their conquerors, Greek Roman and others. Now they were no more noble or evil than another group of peers and imperialists. Maccabees I II describe horrible torture from all sides. But still the invading Greeks and later the Romans knew that the ethnic groups they ruled would seek revolt and self determination. I thought it funny that the Jews are called the 'rebels' in the article. I can think of our US history and smile at the joke put there by that author.
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mP
@designs
Im just trying to present a balanced view where we are honest. The Romans didnt come and destroy Judea for fun, they did it because in their eyes they had too.
Im not defending anyone, but its obvious why one set of actions by one party sparked a response. Rome could not allow one nation within its borders to go around killing thousands. Violence like this is bad for the business of empiure which is to tax its subjects as much as possible but not too much. Actually the spark for the jewish rebellion in judea was also a tax.
Sometimes you have to be sensible, after all what chance did a small natin of Jews have against the might of Rome. Absolutely none. It was the religion that made them think they were chosen by God. It was this blind madness that made them think they could win against Rome, when we all know they had no chance.
@design
I thought it funny that the Jews are called the 'rebels' in the article. I can think of our US history and smile at the joke put there by that author.
mP:
YOu must remember that the RCC is nothing more than the religious arm of the Roman Empire. Just look at the name and so on. Julius Caesar was a pope of the Roman church before becoming Emperer etc. The RCC modus operandi in simple form was to control all religions, unfortunately the Jewish pride got in the way.
Im not judging im just stating the facts.
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Phizzy
Mp, I don't quite follow your last paragraph, Julius Caesar died in 44 B.C did he not ? long befrore the RCC, great General and Statesman though he was, I do not recall him having any religious role ,or title.
Could you elaborate ? thanks.
As to the thread Title, the myth of a "pure" Chrisitianity is something the WT promote as a fact, whereas from the very beginning of the Jesus Cult we have a number of Christologies that are at variance with each other, hence the multiplicity of sects and ideas that grew up even before the N.T was finished.
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designs
Phizzy- You are right about the diverse views and this is why the Jews who thought Jesus was the Messiah began to lose faith when the promises made didn't happen. Paul was successful in selling a new Jesus to the Gentile world.
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mP
@Phizzy
The Roman Catholic Church of today is a continuation of the original Roman religious establishment in charge of managing religion for the benefit of the empire. Before Peter (lets pretend he did goto Rome) and started the church on the vatican the vatican was already established. Vatican means hill of soothsayers. The titles of the old vatican were reused by the new.
The more you look the more you will the so called christian RCC is just a continuation that evolves with time. ALso take note the RCC is not christian, they accept saints and ebleives from all over the place.
Notice the dates...and peoples.. titles.
Nearly all of the major terms of the RCC are political. Ask a greek what Basilica means etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifex_Maximus
The Pontifex Maximus ( Latin , literally: "greatest pontiff ") was the high priest of the College of Pontiffs ( Collegium Pontificum ) in ancient Rome . This was the most important position in the ancient Roman religion , open only to patricians until 254 BC, when a plebeian first occupied this post. A distinctly religious office under the early Roman Republic , it gradually became politicized until, beginning with Augustus , it was subsumed into the Imperial office. Its last use with reference to the emperors is in inscriptions of Gratian [1] (reigned 375–383) who, however, then decided to omit the words "pontifex maximus" from his title. [2] [3]
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The Pontifex was not simply a priest. He had both political and religious authority. It is not clear which of the two came first or had the most importance. In practice, particularly during the late Republic, the office of Pontifex Maximus was generally held by a member of a politically prominent family. It was a coveted position mainly for the great prestige it conferred on the holder; Julius Caesar became pontifex in 73 BC and pontifex maximus in 63 BC.
All the dress of the modern church is a copy of the old. Much of the RCC custom like celebacy is a continuation of the old. Nuns are of course the new form of the vestal virgin etc. The more you look the more you will see this is very much true.
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mP
@design
There is no proof there were any christians or followers of jesus before 70ad, outside the bible and tradition. I think you will find most claims are either from the catholic church where they have pretended that the persecuted jews were christian.