If your sense of justice screams "unfair!" to it, and we are made at God's image, what do you think God must feel?
Eden
Anyone can be saved
by StopTheTears 75 Replies latest jw friends
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Heaven
EdenOne, it has nothing to do with a sense of anything other than logic. The Christian faith is not know to everyone, therefore logically, not everyone can be saved.
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punkofnice
eden -
bitter and disilusioned
Nooooooooooo. You didn't just say that. That's WBT$ speak.
It's nice of you to care and it would be nice to meet you. I guess you're not in the UK which is the first hurdle.
I'd say that I am now living in reality. It isn't a nice place to be but at least it's honest. No one promised it'd be nice.
I'd say I was disillusioned when I was a believer. Now I see there is nothing real to believe in. As much as I enjoyed a church service (and I still go to evensong occasionally because it's beautiful hearing the choir), I saw how all the prayers had no effect on anything prayed for.
I've seen how atheist and agnostic friends have helped me more in practical ways that prayer ever did. I can no longer believe in god, he/it/she has given me no reason. The WBT$ has been spouting on about the end 'soon' for so long now it's a joke. I can't see how the churches have done any better.
Just my opinion and I'm not forcing this on anyone but in response to the disillusioned and bitter thing, if god were so great and loved us he/it/she would make the true path blindingly obvious, beyond a shadow of a doubt without the vague interpretations of men from miscellaneous 'holy' books. I love my children unconditionally and don't hide myself from them hoping they'll find me. I don't punish them in a gruesome way if they choose a path I don't approve of. If they said they didn't love me sure I'd be hurt but I wouldn't kill or torture them and their offspring.
Numbers 14:18 New Living Translation (NLT) 18 ‘The L ord is slow to anger and filled with unfailing love, forgiving every kind of sin and rebellion. But he does not excuse the guilty. He lays the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations.’
Bitter? No. Realistic. If there is any bitterness it's in the taste of being wrong hoping in a being that doesn't care or exist.
Disillusioned? Not anymore. I no longer rely on a book to prove to me that the book itself is right. That's too circular. Just because I was born in a christian country means nothing. If I were born in Pakistan/Japan(inset no xtian country from any age) I'm sure I'd be lead to believe I just so happen to be born into the right faith if I were whatever the religion of that cointry era happens to be. If you catch my drift.
A drink? Your round......mine's a lager.
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cantleave
EdenOne
I am am not going to speak for eithe Punky or Cofty but I will take issue with your statement
And it's hard not to feel scared that someday I might become as bitter and disilusioned as you are.
Are you saying that ALL people who reject the delusion of faith and god are bitter and disillusioned, or were you being specic to Punky's case, where his family were destroyed by bullying policies of the this malevolent, dispicable cult?
If it that was a general statement aimed at people who who rationallly discrded their faith in nonsense, Let me tell you I may be disillusioned with the way I brought up, but that disillusionment comes from the people who used to call me friend and family members who feel that myths are more important than family. I certainly am not disillusioned with the way my life without stupid ideas is now heading (as I sit in suite in a 4 star hotel on "business" about to take a tour of NYC).
I am not bitter, I wasted 42 years of my life in cult, but I eventually woke up, and the important people in life came out with me. I am certainly not bitter with a figment of the imagination. Why should I be? It doesn't exist and has no influence on anything I do.
Christianity is foolish nonsense. If people want to believe that shit, good for them, you can believe what you want. People like stop the tears who preach "join up or go to hell" are just a joke, until someone screws their life by following them into this ridiculous syem of belief.
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Terry
A big crisis in the Adventist movement was when Ellen White "received" a vision saying the door of salvatiion ended on such and such a date.
More and more converts were wanting to become members and what were they to do about it??
The denomination split into 2 groups! The Open Door and the Close Door sects!!
Well, the church hid the doctrine at first. Later, they said their prophetess "misinterpreted" the vision! (An adjustment!).
Finally, a letter written by Ellen White clearly and specifically refuted any misinterpretation effort. It was the "smoking gun"!
Now interestingly, Jehovah's Witnesses have on more than one occasion been taught the Door to the heavenly calling was "closed" on such and such a date.
Why? First of all, Fred Franz ripped off almost everything Ellen White had come up with in her "visions", but, more importantly the number of anointed
was seen as necessarily declining rather than increasing! So, amazingly, the WTS simply declared the door slammed shut!!
What kind of men think they can tamper with who God saves and when it happens???
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punkofnice
cantleave -
Punky's case, where his family were destroyed by bullying policies of the this malevolent, dispicable cult
Yes. Thanks cantleave. This was indeed the case and my sons have been suffering ever since. When I went to church as a born again all the praying I did didn't help. Of course I'm sure the get out clause is that god has a different plan. If that is the case it worked. I now no longer believe in this selfish imaginary crackpot in the sky.
God has not helped me one iota. The delusion made me feel all special and fuzzy but the reality is that there is no one on the other end of prayer. There is no evidence.
If god miraculously gives me cash to the exact penny I am thinking of in my head then I might begin to believe. But he won't. I'm sure xtians will have all sorts of get out clauses as to why god hasn't done a thing. Excuses I'm afraid.
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Este
EdenOne, it has nothing to do with a sense of anything other than logic. The Christian faith is not know to everyone, therefore logically, not everyone can be saved.
Everyone must be given the chance to know about Christ otherwise it would be unjust correct? GOD is a GOD of Justice so when will that time be? Why it must be at the arrival of Jesus Christ when the Good News of the Kingdom is preached by Christ and the twelve apostles.....
E.
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cofty
it's hard not to feel scared that someday I might become as bitter and disilusioned as you are - Eden
You cheeky bugger!
Life has never been more awesome and inspiring since the day I gave up childish delusions and embraced reality.
I see theism as an enemy of humanity - at best its a comfort blanket that belongs to the infancy of our species. Bitterness has nothing to do with my opposition of your arrogant truth claims.
Look at the wicked, despicable, evil, sick and twisted images in this thread of people being thrown into the fires of hell. What is wrong with you people?
Christians really do themselves no favours. They claim to know th emost fantasmagorical things with great certainty and then label those who call them out on their bullshit as arrogant.
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Heaven
Everyone must be given the chance to know about Christ otherwise it would be unjust correct?
Este, the homo sapien species has been on Earth for 100,00 to 200,000 years. The Christian faith is around, say, 2,000 years old. The math doesn't add up.
Everyone who lived and died before the Christian faith was created never knew Christ. There are people living on the Earth today who have never heard of him and never will. These people will live their lives and die without ever having read a Christian Bible or ever having heard of Jesus. Here is an example:
This remote Amazon tribe was discovered in 2008. No one knew they existed before.
I think Christopher Hitchens states it rather well :
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EdenOne
punk, cofty, cantleave
Please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that being disillusioned and bitter is how you have your life now or that it may be a permanent feature in your life. I hope it doesn't. But correct me if I'm wrong, you all went through that phase at some point when you were waking up. I guess one of the worst feelings there is is when you consider yourself reasonably smart and educated and then you conclude that you've been lied to and deceived intentionally. You feel terrible, about the other party, and then about yourself because you feel stupid and used, and finally about the world because no one told you (perhaps some did but you weren't listening) ...etc etc. I know the feeling ...I'm in the business world and deceit is common between competitors.
The added evil is when you lose your family in the process. Like I said, I got 9 out of 10 of my closest family in...well in. So you can see what I'm contemplating.
The way I was brought up, I cannot understand the world emotionally (rationally is a whole other ball game that I'm not prepared to debate) without the notion of a Creator / Father that gives sense to life as we know it. Yes, God never talked to me. yes, I find it disturbing that God may look down on us as ants in anthill and according to his mood he may be playful and merciful, or indifferent of wrathful. Perhaps it's like that. I'm just not prepared to process the idea that there's nothing, zero intelligence behind the physical universe. Call me ignorant if you will. But Christ appeals to my humanity. What people make of Christ and of God, well ...
I'm not in the UK, but I'm not that far either. One of these days if i happen to go to London for some trade show in Earl's Court, I'll get in touch. I dislike most beers, but I'm partial to a black stout ;) And ummmm ... partial to Manchester United too ... *ducks*
Eden
