by Crazyguy 261 Replies latest jw friends
Evolutionary biology is real and we can see it in species that actually exist today.
Why is that people who make the effort to debunk evolution have little education in biology/physics/paleontology etc.
One fact that should be honestly accepted is that all humans suffer from ignorance of knowledge to various degrees.
Take it a step at a time crazyguy, look at the evidence of civilizations and communities that existed before the Adam and Eve story in Genesis, villages in Damascus, Southern France, China and Egypt. Once we start getting our heads around how long humans and their ancesotrs have been around other matters of biology and botany start falling in place.
If Evolution is a slow change, or adaptation of a given species over time, in response to enviromental demands, then evolution is a fact. Maybe you are having issues with your concept of what evolution is? Many JW's do not have the foggiest notion of what evolution is, therefore they dismiss it off-hand. What they really have an issue with is the origin of life itself. The JW concept of Satanic evolution is disrespectful to the creator, they feel.
When you are raised believing that you have " the truth ", you no longer search for answers. Why should you? JW "scholars" believe that they are educated because they read the Awake, and fact check with the WT CD-Library and JW.org, and the Appendix of the NWT.
From a biblical point of view, not much is said about the creation process of animals and plants. The most details given concern man, and there isn't much information. We are told that GOD formed man from the elements of the earth, that's about it. With so many details omitted, it's a little silly to claim that we KNOW how this was done. Even scientists do not KNOW how everything really came about. They just KNOW what they observe and test. That is one of the limitations of the scientific method. Still, animals do change over time to survive, that is a fact. It is verifiable, therefore it is truth.
It's disconcerting when our "truths" meet facts. It can be the beginning of a journey that many are reluctant to take. It can also trigger such fear, that anyone discussing facts, instead of " truths ", may find themselves subject to an inquisition and subsequent excommunication.
Watch the StarTrek " Distant Origin" episode. It's really cool.
Peace,
DD
Oh yeah, and unless the dating method is horribly flawed, or purposely misleading, how can we have ancient civilizations that have been around longer than humans according to the WTBTS?! I am not saying that there is no Creator, but the WTBTS is way off.. They have not had one " bible-based" prediction come true in over 100 years!! Not one!! Why would they do any better in the scientific field which they don't even study?!
I wonder why those people who are frustrated with those who do not believe evolution even bother to read or post here? If you feel the original poster is a troll, and it is a waste of time to respond, then why do you? Calling people names and telling them to kill themselves is not really going to make it any more likely that they will believe what you are saying, if that is your goal.
There is a lot of really great information information here. Maybe Crazy guy is a troll, maybe not. In any case a lot of people will read this thread. I believe in evolution, but I have not studied it since leaving the dubs. I have learned a lot from threads like this, I am sure there are others like me. And maybe there are those who do not believe in evolution, that are reading this thread and getting something out of it. It may not convince them today, but as time goes on and they think about it and learn more, they may change their mind. With all the scorn heaped on those who don't believe in evolution, I am sure many are afraid to post here, or ask questions, and who can blame them? Why would anyone want to be called a troll, or stupid, because they asked a question?
I understand that it is frustrating to take the time to write a post, only to have the other person ignore what you said, but it does not mean you wasted your time. This thread has had 2,000 views so far, and who knows how many will eventually read it. So keep posting, just dial down the hostility.
Hi LisaRose,
I wonder why those people who are frustrated with those who do not believe evolution even bother to read or post here?
Personally I have a few reasons for posting. I relate to Crazyguy's OP, in terms of how I felt about the subject as a believing JW. I really do hope to be helpful to any who are interested in the subject, while admiting I am not an expert by any means. Finally, I think it is a great way to learn more about a subject. Reading books is great too, but actually "testing the waters" so to speak gives me a sense whether or not I have gaps or weaknesses in my arguments -- knowing I'll likely be called out on them.
The subject does seem to generate emotion, so it may be difficult to be completely objective. I know when I really saw for the first time some of this dishonesty in blue Life How Did It Get Here? book, I was very frustrated and felt seriously betrayed by the author. Then throw into the mix, some who defend Creationism such as Behe seem to employ less than honest means.
But, yes, always good to put any hostility in check, as long as doing so doesn't divorce us of who we are.
Cheers,
-Randy
Yes, I guess it is frustrating to run into people that refuse to understand even basic concepts. Sometimes people believe what they want to believe.
I remember that blue evolution book. I can't believe I believed everything in it at one point. Embarrassing to think now
I remember one of the arguments against evolution was that a complex thing, such as an eye, could not happen by mutation, because a partial eye would not function, and the eye is far too complex to have been one mutation. Sounds right to a non scientist, but now I know there are fish that have a very rudimentary eye, it only sees vague shadows, but that partial eye gives it an evolutionary advantage, allowing the further changes that led to a more developed eye.
I don't see why evolution is assumed to preclude some other, intelligent force. I don't see how belief in some intelligent force is inimical to science, because science is about finding facts. Let's just say for argument's sake something is created, like the Antikythera Mechanism which has been studied for decades, and someone else wants to find out how it's made. They spend years and years studying what it's made of and how it works. Whether it is created or came about by itself does not change the fact that learning all about it is beneficial and interesting. Molecular biologists who believe in design or theism have just as much motivation to study some natural thing in depth as ones who have a strictly naturalist view of the universe: they want to know all about it because humans are curious and love learning.
However, 'it was created that way' can be a thought blocking technique which halts further interest. But, 'I wonder how it was created?' Can lead to someone wanting to learn more, just like artists studying Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel: one, the artist can further admire the work; the artist can improve their own practice; and finally, it's just really fascinating to learn ie the learning experience itself is intrinsicly valuable. So believing something was designed or its evolution was somehow kick started by someone, doesn't necessarily halt study of it. The scientist just approaches it from a different world view.
I don't see why evolution is assumed to preclude some other, intelligent force. I don't see how belief in some intelligent force is inimical to science, because science is about finding facts. Let's just say for argument's sake something is created, like the Antikythera Mechanism which has been studied for decades, and someone else wants to find out how it's made. They spend years and years studying what it's made of and how it works. Whether it is created or came about by itself does not change the fact that learning all about it is beneficial and interesting. Molecular biologists who believe in design or theism have just as much motivation to study some natural thing in depth as ones who have a strictly naturalist view of the universe: they want to know all about it because humans are curious and love learning.
However, 'it was created that way' can be a thought blocking technique which halts further interest. But, 'I wonder how it was created?' Can lead to someone wanting to learn more, just like artists studying Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel: one, the artist can further admire the work; the artist can improve their own practice; and finally, it's just really fascinating to learn ie the learning experience itself is intrinsicly valuable. So believing something was designed or its evolution was somehow kick started by someone, doesn't necessarily halt study of it. The scientist just approaches it from a different world view.
