@LisaRose = Were those overlapping generations . . . just curious cuz it would make a difference.
Evolution is Crap, there I said it!
by Crazyguy 261 Replies latest jw friends
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LisaRose
LOL, I was waiting for some one to say that. These are scientists, they know what the meaning of a generation is. By the JW meaning of it, a whole new type of fish could have evolved.
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snare&racket
When I first told my JW pals about believing in evolution, I was surprised to find that a few did.
elders, elders wives, pioneers. Not many, not lots, but of the few i told there were a number that either felt it could be true but for now just keep quiet and there were a few who admitted there may be more to it than many believe.
They were trying to appease me admittedly, I showed them proof of evolution and said i can't be a JW and believe these proven facts, thats a dilemma. They told me i could believe in evolution and be a jw, this was my pals mum and it came as a shock to me. The next circuit assembly, denying evolution was mentioned as one of the things that identified JW's, according to the baptism talk. That was the last one i went to.
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ÁrbolesdeArabia
Why can't we have a civil discussion with Evolution? Making your points with nasty words and insults dilutes the greatest arguments, I usually stay away from this topic because the emotional part of the brain turns on full blast while the thinking part shuts down! Why can't we talk in a civil manner and speak with kindness? That's as much of a part of this thread as I want, the starting post shows a fear in his voice, I think he does not know the subject well enough, it's very sad!
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cofty
There are some very helpful and informative posts on this thread.
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ÁrbolesdeArabia
cofty, I think our friend has finely read "Signature in the Cell" by Dr. Stephen Mayer because many of his points are in that book. I read a lot of books, Mayer's book was very good and has some great arguments that are not easily explained. People brush him off for his I.D. and working for the Discovery Institute. He is not a easy person to win a argument against, not some back-watered dumbo but a man who loves to study and do tons of research and lots of late hour reading. Cofty, if you get a chance, his book is very good and so is "Darwins Black Box" and Dr. Francisis Collins book to. I use to enjoy debating this subject, it gets too emotional for my nerves, I enjoy good topics with mostly happy things.
Dover vs Kitz.... was a disaster that set back the I.D. movement in the school system back many years. Stephen Meyer mentioned how badly that case was botched, you can't force teachers to do things they do not want to do. Emotional issues like this usually get ugly and that court case was a giant blunder, they handled things like nut crackers!
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cofty
AA - I am very familiar with the arguments of ID including those of Stephen Mayer and Michael Behe.
In short Behe argues for irreducible complexity and Mayer for specified complexity.
It is a slightly more sophisticated version of Paley's 150 year old watch argument. I would be happy to discuss them with you in detail if you wish.
Francis Collins is a totally different sort of scientist. The difference between the Theistic Evolution that Collins advocates and the creationism/ID that Mayer and Behe preach is profound.
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ÁrbolesdeArabia
Behe's arguments started out good but if I remember correctly, he left out some information and created a mess for himself. Stephen Meyer has mellowed out kinda, he is not the same man I remember years ago with that zealous "Six Day Creationism" people wanted him to preach. Recently he gave a interview on the Late Night Radio and I enjoyed his new mannerism and very rational thinking.
I would enjoy to have a nice exchange of ideas without all the anger and emotion so many of these threads end up in. Do you remember the issue with Behe's IRC that started a little firestorm for this scientist? I was reading through some of the graduate students rebuttals of his ideas during a speaking engagement he and another Christian scientist were doing at a college. My brain is blank right now and I would like to get my mind right with the issues Behe was having, I don't think he was trying to be intellectually dishonest, oh it's hard to remember the problems he was dealing with.
It would be nice to brush off some of those books and have some threads on JWN that are more civil and help everyone learn something new or old. We can all be friends what ever we believe, we need to get away from that Watchtower mind that kept so many of us prisoners of a concept! I think there are many smart people here who keep their mouths silent on various topics for fear of being excoriated. Maybe we can change that Coft? Let's create a more kinder "Evolution Discussion Forums" on JWN where ideas can be shared without insults and hurt feelings, what do you think?
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cantleave
AA - I don't think these threads do end up being entwined with anger or emotion. The Common Ancetsry thread clearly lays out some irrefutable facts and the few attempts at rebutting them have been shown to be fallacious.
Unfortunately those who promote ID or Creationsim are like the watchtower, they can not support their fallacies and they get defensive.
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cofty
Like Cantleave, Snare&Racket and others - The well-named Tiktaalik for example - I really enjoy explaining science.
As Cantleave said creationists tend to get defensive and lose the ability to understand English when we present evidence that contradicts their beliefs.
The Common Ancestry thread is a great example of a thread that so far has not been hijacked.
The Greatest Show on Earth review thread is another...
If you have any questions or want to discuss any particular point please do.
Its helpful to understand the distinctions between creationsim, ID and Theistic Evolution. They often get confused and many evolution deniers are not sure what it is they are arguing for.