What exactly was going on after Jesus was put to death and no longer around?

by Terry 53 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry

    The Jesus believers were meeting in people's homes. Members of that community would take turns using private homes to gather. Thus, they went house to house.

    These footstep tracers of Jesus (they called themselves Akolouthontes "followers" or some called themselves Mathetai or "learners.") were puzzling out what it meant to follow Jesus. Who was he...really? Was he going to return? Why? When?

    Each was curious about the others. Maybe somebody else knew something they didn't? They sought each other out....with questions...

    If somebody brought word that another house in another town had Akolouthontes or Mathetai a person would be appointed as an emissary. These emmisaries were called Apostles. The job of an apostle was to contact other believers and create a network with them.

    The task cut out for believers was in overcoming the dissonance of OPINIONS to the contrary within each group.

    They were called out of Judaism and pagan cults into little groups. As such, those "called out" were ecclesia. People and not church.

    Few groups were without contradictory ideas of who/what Jesus was or meant.

    Early on, there were no Jesus writings at all, only oral stories and opinions.

    Pagans, who were broad-minded about religious worship, called them contemptuous names such as "christian" as a perjorative.

    Eventually the Jesus movement called themselves that as well.

    The common term for 'christians' was FECAL HERETIC or Stercorantist because the arguments were incessant b.s. to the pagans.

    Jehovah's Witnesses ask of another, "Are you in the Truth?" But, early members of the Jesus Movement would ask "Are you following the path?"

    He Hodos (the path).

    The big problem was in DEFINING that path and standardizing it in the face of contrary ideas about solidarity and "lockstep" ritual.

    For there to be apostacy there would have to be a STANDARD christianity which there NEVER was until it was forced by the pagan state in 325.

    But, non-stop fighting, bickering, violence and divisions continued for decades and decades!

    Writings began to appear and the proliferation of these was never-ending. No canon of Judaism existed nor of the Jesus Movement until after Marcion began organizing letters from the emissary Paul into a set of little books (bible). After that, reactionary followers began selecting from among many existing writings their own REBUTTALS or apologia. Eventually after many debates a formal canon appeared.

    Jesus was many opinions told by word of mouth. Those who followed the path were not in agreement. One thing is certain, however, all were convinced for quite awhile that Jesus was quickly returning. When this DID NOT happen, it was the first GREAT DISAPPOINTMENT. The religion changed into

    a formal social movement of apocalyptic aspirations, martyrs and gadflys.

    There was no central house of worship or governing body. There were Didaskale or teachers.

    Many charismatic "gifts" were given and no formal meetings were ordered or established with priests.

    In fact, there weren't any priests in christianity because, according to Jesus, his death did away with the need of it.

    By the time the catholic (i.e. "universal") church was established, Priests appeared to perform the magic trick of turning

    wine into blood (yes, actual blood of Jesus) and bread into the body (yes, Jesus actual body) so that a ritual purpose for attending

    a building (called CHURCH) could be invoked.

    The Catholic priesthood was an elite invention of mere men to induce the unwary to attend a central meeting place and partake of the magic trick

    called COMMUNION.

    The Jehovah's Witness mythos about "Early Christians" is largely a cherry-picked fantasy that never existed.

  • Glander
    Glander

    When one considers the time frame between the events recorded as NT gospel and the actual writing of the "eyewitnesses" accounts decades later, it is obvious that the NT is not much more than a Dan Brown novel.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Was this before the writings of paul and the gospels?

    S

  • Terry
    Terry

    First the Jesus movement (small groups meeting to ask each other questions and tell stories). Next the visitations by apostles or emissaries.

    Then the teachers established connected stories and formalized meetings. Then, letters or epistles between groups and teachers (Paul) followed by a sudden proliferation of charismatic writings which start to include Gospels followed after the destruction of Judaism's temple in Jerusalem, with Mark coming first.

    The Gospels, it is believed, were drawing from an early SOURCE document called Q.

    These groups were in competition with each other---style and substance differed because of the kind of people being drawn in.

    Pagans brought with them Pagan ideas about Jesus.

    Jews brought monotheistic ideas.

    Peripetetic teachers (philosophers) brought Greek philosophy and Plato's mystical ideas into the Jesus story.

    JOHN's gospel is permeated by Greek ideas from Plato.

    And so on...

    Who you were and where you lived and what you ALREADY believed about god had a lot to do with HOW YOU SAW JESUS and his teaching and YOUR role in all of it.

    Worth reading: http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/Eusebius_Gospels.htm

  • Terry
    Terry

    · Historical Books – Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts

    · Pauline Epistles – Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians. 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon

    · Non-Pauline Epistles – Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, Jude, Revelation

    The 92 books that are identified below were totally rejected by the early church fathers from their "official" (canonized) bible. They may be grouped into four categories: 1. Gospels; 2. Acts; 3. Writings and 3. Apocalypses. Some may wonder why we did not include Gnostic writings in the list below; because these sects were not really Christian.

    NON-CANONICAL GOSPELS

    The Infancy Gospel of Thomas: Greek Text A

    The Infancy Gospel of Thomas: Greek Text B

    The Infancy Gospel of Thomas: Latin Text

    5th Century Compilation of Thomas Texts

    An Arabic Infancy Gospel

    The Gospel of the Hebrews

    The Gospel of James

    The Gospel of the Nativity of Mary

    The Gospel of Mary of Bethany

    The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew

    The Gospel of Nicodemos (Acts of Pilate)

    The Gospel of Bartholomew

    The Gospel of Peter

    The Gospel of Thomas

    The Gospel of Philip

    The Gospel of the Lord-by Marcion

    The Secret Gospel of Mark

    NON-CANONICAL ACTS

    The Acts of Andrew

    The Acts and Martyrdom of Andrew

    The Acts of Andrew and Matthew

    The Acts of Barnabas

    Martyrdom of Bartholomew

    The Acts of John

    The Mystery of the Cross: Excerpt from the Acts of John

    The Acts of John the Theologian

    The History of Joseph the Carpenter

    The Book of John on the Death of Mary

    The Passing of Mary

    The Acts and Martyrdom of Matthew

    The Martyrdom of Matthew

    The Acts of Paul

    The Acts of Paul and Thecla

    The Acts of Peter

    The Acts of Peter and Andrew

    The Acts of Peter and Paul

    The Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles

    The Acts of Philip

    The Report of Pontius Pilate to Tiberius

    The Giving Up of Pontius Pilate

    The Death of Pilate

    The Acts of Thaddaeus

    The Acts of Thomas

    The Narrative of Joseph of Arimathaea

    The Book of Thomas the Contender

    The Consummation of Thomas

    WRITINGS (NON-CANONICAL EPISTLES AND MISCELLANY)

    Community Rule

    The Apocryphon of James

    The Correspondence of Jesus and Abgar

    The Sophia of Jesus Christ

    The Apocryphon of John

    The Narrative of Joseph of Arimathaea

    The Epistle to the Laodiceans

    The Correspondence of Paul and Seneca

    The Prayer of the Apostle Paul

    Excerpts from Pistis Sophia

    The Avenging of the Saviour

    The Three Steles of Seth

    The Book of Thomas the Contender

    The Teachings of Addeus the Apostle

    The Epistle of the Apostles

    John the Evangelist

    The Epistle to the Laodiceans

    The Letter of Barnabus

    The Letter of Peter to Philip

    The Letter of Pontius Pilate to the Emperor

    The Report of Pilate to Caesar

    The Report of Pilate to Tiberius

    The Shepherd of Hermes

    APOCALYPSES

    The Apocalypse of Adam

    The Revelation of Esdras

    The First Apocalypse of James

    The Second Apocalypse of James

    The Revelation of John the Theologian

    The Revelation of Moses

    The Acts and Martyrdom of Matthew

    The Martyrdom of Matthew

    The Acts of Paul

    The Acts of Paul and Thecla

    The Acts of Peter

    The Acts of Peter and Andrew

    The Acts of Peter and Paul

    The Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles

    The Acts of Philip

    The Report of Pontius Pilate to Tiberius

    The Giving Up of Pontius Pilate

    The Death of Pilate

    The Acts of Thaddaeus

    The Acts of Thomas

    The Narrative of Joseph of Arimathaea

    The Book of Thomas the Contender

    The Consummation of Thomas

  • Terry
    Terry

    The biggest problem faced by early historians of the church was sorting through all the writings that had suddenly appeared after Jesus' death (and resurrection?).

    WERE THEY ALL FAN-FICTION?

    Were some "inspired" in some way?

    If so, how much and which?

    Paul L. Maier (He is the former Russell H. Seibert Professor of Ancient History at Western Michigan University)

    (1999) wrote:

    They cannot deny their crime: the copies are in their own handwriting, they did not receive the Scriptures in this condition from their teachers, and they cannot produce originals from which they made their copies. Some have even found it unnecessary to emend the text but have simply rejected the Law and the Prophets, using a wicked, godless teaching to plunge into the lowest depths of destruction. They have not been afraid to corrupt divine Scriptures, they have rescinded the rule of ancient faith, they have not known Christ, they ignore Scripture but search for a logic to support their atheism. If anyone challenges them with a passage from Scripture, they examine it to see if it can be turned into a common syllogism. Abandoning the holy Scripture of God, they study "geometry" [earth measurement], for they are from the earth and speak of the earth and do not know the One who comes from above.” (*)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Who was Eusebius? The official HISTORIAN of the Church!

    Another scholar, Joseph Wheless charged that Eusebius was one of the most prolific forgersand liars of his age in the church, and a great romancer; in his hair-raising histories of the holy Martyrs, he assures us "that on some occasions the bodies of the martyrs who had been devoured by wild beasts, upon the beasts being strangled, were found alive in their stomachs, even after having been fully digested"!

    *Eusebius: The Church History, from Book 5 section 28)

  • theron ware
    theron ware

    For there to be apostacy there would have to be a STANDARD christianity which there NEVER was until it was forced by the pagan state in 325.

    I think Terry's description of the post-crucifixion Jesus Movement (that's what I call it) is right-on. The crucifixion itself was totally unexpected and came as a complete shock to Jesus' followers. How they coped with the disaster, and what they did to regroup in its aftermath we do not know. The book of Acts (pure Pauline apologetics) notwithstanding, we know virtually nothing about James, Peter, John and the "Jerusalem congregation" in these years. Did it continue to exist? If so, did it continue in Jerusalem or retreat to Galilee? It is reasonable to suppose that if they did continue, then they continued following "the way," but I do not believe that they developed a christology resembling that of Paul. As Jews, their messianic hopes had been centered on a living Jesus and a restored (earthly) kingdom. The "suffering" servant references and Jesus own predictions of his death in the Gospels are pure ex post facto explanations.

    To say that there was no standard Christianity until 325 is a bit of an over-simplification. Starting in the early second century, the so-called Church Fathers began deciding what beliefs were orthodox and which were heretical. In books I have read, the term "proto-orthodox" is usually applied to the beliefs that would later be encoded as the creeds of orthodox Christianity. And as we know, Jesus lost that battle too.

  • Terry
    Terry

    theron ware:

    To say that there was no standard Christianity until 325 is a bit of an over-simplification. Starting in the early second century, the so-called Church Fathers began deciding what beliefs were orthodox and which were heretical.

    Here is some info from the new world encyclopedia
    http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Papias
    Writings

    Papias' Explanation of the Sayings of the Lord seems to have been not only an interpretation of Jesus' words, but also a collection of his sayings, gleaned not only from the Gospels but also from first-hand and second-hand accounts from the apostles, disciples, and other "elders" (presbyters) whom Papias encountered. Papias himself describes how he gathered his information, in an account preserved by Eusebius of Caesaria:

    …I formerly learned with care from the presbyters (elders) and have carefully stored (what I learned) in memory, giving assurance of its truth… And also if any follower of the presbyters happened to come, I would inquire for the sayings of the presbyters, what Andrew said, or what Peter said, or what Philip or what Thomas or James or whatJohn or Matthew or any other of the Lord's disciples, and for the things which other of the Lord's disciples, and for the things which Aristion and the Presbyter John, the disciples of the Lord, were saying. For I considered that I should not get so much advantage from matter in books as from the voice which yet lives and remains.

    Mark and his Gospel: Papias describes Mark as writing from memory what he heard from Peter. Mark and his Gospel: Papias describes Mark as writing from memory what he heard from Peter.

    Papias thus reports that his information came largely from an unwritten, oral tradition of the presbyters, apparently meaning elders. However, a great deal of debate resulted from Papias' use of the term, by which he seems to mean sometimes first-generation apostles and disciples of Jesus, and sometimes other elders who were hearers of the apostles. His work thus represents a kind of "sayings" or logia tradition passed down from Jesusthrough the apostles and disciples. Contemporary scholars such as Helmut Koester consider him to be the earliest surviving written witness of this tradition (Koester, 1990 pp. 32f) Papias also seems to have collected stories regarding the earliest history of the church after Jesus' death.

    Papias' preserved writings also provide an early testimony concerning the origins of the Gospels. He explained that Mark, whom he characterizes as the companion and Greek translator of Saint Peter, wrote the earliest Gospel after having listened to Peter relate accounts of Jesus' life and teachings during their travels together. However, Papias admits that Mark, while writing nothing "fictitious," did not record the events of Jesus' ministry in their exact order, and that he wrote from memory of Peter's teachings, not from notes. Matthew, says Papias, wrote in Hebrew, offering a different, though still sincere, interpretation of Jesus' life and teachings. The fragment preserved by Eusebius relative to this is as follows:

    Mark, having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered. It was not, however, in exact order that he related the sayings or deeds of Christ. For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied him. But afterward, as I said, he accompanied Peter… Wherefore Mark made no mistake in thus writing some things as he remembered them. For of one thing he took especial care: Not to omit anything he had heard, and not to put anything fictitious into the statements… Matthew put together the oracles [of the Lord] in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could.

    It is debated, however, whether the Gospels of Matthew and Mark to which Papias refers were the same as the ones we know today. In Matthew's case, for example, Papias seems to refer to a "sayings" Gospel rather than a narrative one—referring only to the "oracles" of Jesus rather than both "sayings and deeds," as in Mark's case. Also, in the case of both Gospels, scholars have noted significant differences among the earliest manuscripts, all of which postdate Papias. Thus it is impossible to know with certainty what version of either Gospel he himself knew.

    Papias also related a number of traditions regarding Jesus' teaching concerning the coming Kingdom of God, characterizing it as a literal reign on earth in which fruit, grain, and animal life would be marvelously productive, and humans would enjoy delicious foods. Eusebius called these and other teachings of Papias "strange parables and teachings of the savior, and some other more mythical accounts." Regarding the latter we know that Papias related an account of Judas Iscariot immediately before his death, in which he describes Judas in gruesome detail as grotesquely swollen, putrid-smelling, and possessing huge genitalia. Papias also reported a story about a certain disciple named Justus Barsabas, who drank snake venom but suffered no harm. He also related a tale via a daughter of Philip the Evangelist concerning the resurrection of a corpse (Hist. Eccl. 3.39).

    Eusebius further states that Papias "reproduces a story about a woman falsely accused before the Lord of many sins." Although Eusebius did not elaborate, biblical scholar J. B. Lightfoot identified this with the Pericope Adulterae—the story of the woman taken in adultery. Since the story does not appear in the earliest manuscripts of the Gospel of John, many scholars believe that the Pericope Adulterae must have been a later addition, and Papias seems like a likely candidate as the written source of the story. Critic Michael W. Holmes has pointed out that it is not certain "that Papias knew the story in precisely this form, inasmuch as it now appears that at least two independent stories about Jesus and a sinful woman circulated among Christians in the first two centuries of the church, so that the traditional form found in many New Testament manuscripts may well represent a conflation of two independent shorter, earlier versions of the incident" (Lightfoot, 1989, 304).

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    I gather that you don't subscribe to the flavian/roman invention of jesus as a disinformation of the jewish hero messiah idea. http://www.caesarsmessiah.com/

    S

  • theron ware
    theron ware

    the flavian/roman invention of jesus

    I think the Romans had bigger fish to fry than worry about the Jesus movement, which was certainly real but also certainly insigificant in terms of its size and the "threat" it may have posed to the empire. By the time there was a sizeable number of Christians (long, long after Jesus), it would have been too late to create such a conspiracy.

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