by punkofnice 81 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
OK. This is something I've wondered about.
People of certain religions tend to use their own Holy book as evidence for things in itself. This seems very circular to me. Using the book to prove the book in my view is pointless.
I am not aware of any of the 'miracles' of the Bible or the Quran as having any substantial evidence outside of themselves to give credibility to the books themselves.
Has anyone come across such evidence?
The problem with miracles is that they stop being a miracle if it is scientificaly proven. Wikipedia says: A miracle is a phenomenon not explained by known laws of nature , or an act by some supernatural entity or unknown, outside force. A miracle is sometimes thought of as a perceptible interruption of the laws of nature. Others suggest that God may work with the laws of nature to perform what people see as miracles. [2] Some theologians say that, with divine providence , God regularly works through created nature yet is free to work without, above, or against it as well. [3]
So is there evidence other then eyewitnesses (who died in the past)? No... there is no evidence... but... it does not mean that wonders did not happen.
Miracles shmearacles. Bah humbug.
Punky, difficult question. When I read up on God's name, I came across evidence of Jesus being involved with miracles. Later Jewish writings accused him of effecting miracles by using God's name, indirectly admitting that he was responsible for miracles and that he did use God's name. I know it's not exactly what you're looking for, but it's the best I can do. I looked it up and this is what the source has to say:
According to the Jewish Talmud, according to uncensored versions, Jesus Christ effected miracles by calling on the Name, an indirect acknowledgement that he did use God’s name. He himself declared: "I have made your name known to the people..." (cf. John 17:6, 26; 5:43). Early Coptic texts (Pistis Sophia) tells of Jesus praying to his father by addressing him by various names and incantations: Aeeiouo, Iao, Aoi, and others. In another passage, Jesus addresses his Father in the following names and words: Iao Iouo, Aoi, Oia, and others. This is an indirect indication that he did pronounce God’s Name.
Many, many moons ago I raised a similar question. I'm fairly certain I got some sort of response to the effect that the Romans in Rome were concerned about Jesus' miracles back in Judea that he had to be silenced. Alledgedly that 'fact' was recorded in some secular history but I never had the research tools we have now and so it got dropped - but not forgotten!
Theres an interesting video from scholar richard carrier about miracles in the ancient world. Apparently there are accounts of entire villages swearing they saw fish flying or walking down the street out of water, cant recall which but Richard tells that story and many others. Apparently the emperor vespasian cured a blind man by spitting into his eyes just like Jesus. Moses also tells us that the egyptian priests amanged to turn sticks into snakes. Strange how ordinary people can do these ethings.
I reckon if Derren Brown performed some of his illusions / psychological feats in front of a group of bronze age goat herders, they would be classed as "miracles".
Notwithstanding that people will say it has been proven a hoax, albeit that is by far not the whole story, the Turin shroud is to my mind a good example. At the very least it is the first recorded photographic negative and it is not known how it was produced with the properties it has.
Also resurrections still happen but don’t go by that name in modern times. Now days they tend to come under the topic of near death experiences. There are cases where the modern definition of death is satisfied and a few have stayed dead way past the point where resuscitation without brain damages is possible. I’m not talking about freezing lake cases either, yet they have come back, often not because of what medical practitioners did, without cognitive dysfunction. In such instances NDEs tend to be reported also, albeit NDEs happen as well without such dramatic circumstances.
In the bible all resurrections needed a body to be there for a resurrection to happen. No case is recorded where someone was resurrected without a body, hence the word resurrection means to `stand up again`. There are also cases of people dreaming about future or present events that are correct despite there being no conventional way for such information to be available. Had those myself and I know I’m not the only one. The miraculous happens all the time and people don’t notice or don’t believe, or they do, but there it is.
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