taboo

by teejay 23 Replies latest social relationships

teejay

If a tree falls in a forest when there’s no one around,
does it make a sound...
when it hits the ground?
Just kidding.
That’s not the philosophical rant I was hoping to make. Actually, I was thinking of something closer to home—all of our homes. And it has nothing to do with trees. It’s about adultery.
For a very long time I’ve been very philosophical about the sex act. Generally speaking, it’s not too different from blowing your nose, feeling hungry, sneezing, boo-booing (“defecating” for the intellectual crowd), and any other bodily function you can name. It’s what humans do. ALL humans, if they are “normal.”
Now, with this in mind, mix marriage into this simple equation, marriage being a man-made, life-long commitment to JUST ONE person of the other sex. Emphasis on “man-made.”
I’ve found that marriage not only limits your activities but it limits with whom you engage in those activities. For example:
Want to go to a movie with a person of the opposite sex? Gotta be with your marriage mate (unless it’s with your buds of the same sex).
Want to go to breakfast on a Saturday morning with a person of the opposite sex? Has to be the mate.
Want to sit at home on a Saturday night and have a nice, provocative conversation about Afghanistan or the price of rice in China (neither of which happens to be your mate’s favorite subjects)? Sorry. Somewhere in there, there better be the mate.
Get my point? If you want to do something, anything, with a person of the opposite sex, it has to be the same person. All the time. I allege that no one - no male, no female - is THAT interesting. So, what should I do? Deny myself the privilege of talking about Afghanistan?
What I figured out long time ago is that I like different people for different reasons. Some friends of mine like politics – some don’t; some like movies the movies I like – some don’t; some like talking about the bible/religion/spirituality – some don’t; etc. But none of them like all of it quite like I do, least of all my wife.
Which brings me to the sex thing. Xena made me start thinking about this again when she started her “JWs and Marriage” thread and then Hyghlandyr said what he said about divorce. I’ve felt all along that the "till death do us part" marital commitment was crafted as a scam to keep people together for the sake of kids that were born to the union. If there are no kids, all bets are off.
See... it’s like this (cutting to the chase). My wife is very attractive. Tell you the truth, she’s a babe. Body... face... style... the works. Okay, so call me a dog, but that’s one of the reasons I got attracted to her in the first place. It would not surprise me to know that dudes find her attractive and hit on her all the time. Know what? It doesn’t bother me. I know where she sleeps every night.
But what if she stumbled? Messed up? Did the deed with some joker she works w/ or met at the grocery store? How would I feel then?
I can tell you – as long as she was discreet and didn’t bring home some god-awful disease, it wouldn’t devastate me. I can say that because the first time I was married—for 13 yrs—the woman cheated on me at least once (and probably more) and I took it in stride – didn’t phase me bit. I figured: nobody, and I mean nobody, likes the same ANYTHING all the time.
We live for something different. Something new. Being married, having sex, with the same person (and only THAT person) for fifty years, is absurd.
lv4fer

I've been married for almost 20 years and I've never had sex with anyone else during that time, I can't say that I've not been attracted to anyone else during that 20 years I'm married not dead but it's not right. I made a commitment when I got married and I am a person of my word. I expect the same from my spouse and will not settle for anything less.
"The reward for conformity was that everyone liked you except yourself."
Rita Mae Brown
Solace

teejay,
Thats so sad. Im sorry you feel that way.
I could never imagine being with another man.
Well, I might imagine it but I could never actually go through with it. My husband and I have been together for almost 14 years. I love him more every day. Dont get me wrong, I am very very satisfied sexually but it goes way beyond that. I do still believe in keeping things interesting in that department. Without intimacy there is bound to be problems.
I still honestly look forward to seeing him when I get home from work every day. I would have to say I disagree with you on this. I believe if you truly love someone, you wouldnt actually desire anyone else physically.
True love is not just about sex.
think41self

teejay,
Well, in my case I don't see any reason why your friends would have to be the same sex. I wouldn't feel threatened if Doug had women friends. I've gone out for drinks and a movie with my boss, who is male. Just yesterday I went shopping with him to help him pick out new furniture for the office. Doug has gone out for dinner and drinks with women at times. When he was traveling a lot, he even met up with some "apostate" women, and men, in different cities. They had nice conversations. No biggie. Having friends of the opposite sex has nothing to do with sex...unless you want it to, but that's a whole other issue.
As far as staying interested in the same person year after year, alot of that depends on whether that person continues their own personal growth, which makes for stimulating conversation...at any stage of life.
think41self
She had the vocabulary of a brothel owner specializing in service to sailors with Tourette's syndrome
COMF

I'm down wit dat.
Been studying and meditating on that subject for lo, these past few years, teejay. Here's what I had to say about it a year or so back. Note that the two links in my first post are moved, so I'll post them below in case anyone wants to read them (the post is too old to be edited... so the forum software said).
If anyone's going to read all this, I suggest you read the post through before reading the other two links.
Here's the thread:
- http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=4864&site=3
Here are the two links in their new location:
- http://home.attbi.com/~fredsaw/Lindbergh/Double_Sunrise1.html
- http://home.attbi.com/~fredsaw/Lindbergh/Double_Sunrise2.html
teejay

Back when I was an active JW, in car groups and at other times with trusted friends the discussion would sometimes revolve around more serious subjects like “who is happily married.” Xena’s thread made me think (again) of the JW couples I’ve known over the years.
Thinking about it the last couple of days, I can only think of three or four marriages I ever knew where the couple really seemed to *like* each other – whose relationship was more than a simply a quiet toleration of each other. Of course, it’s impossible to know for certain – I didn’t spend time in the homes of some of them – but many I did, and that’s the way it seemed to me. The strong prohibition against divorce among any group will naturally result in a lot of unhappy but long-term unions.
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I've been married for almost 20 years and I've never had sex with anyone else during that time, I can't say that I've not been attracted to anyone else during that 20 years ... I made a commitment when I got married and I am a person of my word. I expect the same from my spouse and will not settle for anything less.
lv4fer
I understand your commitment. I’m a person of MY word so I know what you’re talking about. As far as I’m concerned, though, my thesis is not a matter of if somebody can keep their word or not. A person can keep a job they don’t necessarily like and live in a neighborhood/city they don’t really prefer – for years. That’s not the same as living in a committed, intimate relationship for the better part of your life to the exclusion of all others.
I just think there’s a certain amount of craziness to it.
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My husband and I have been together for almost 14 years. I love him more every day. I still honestly look forward to seeing him when I get home from work every day. Dont get me wrong, I am very very satisfied sexually but it goes way beyond that. I do still believe in keeping things interesting in that department. Without intimacy there is bound to be problems.
Heaven,
I think you are one lucky woman. Sounds like your hubby is too!
As I said above, over the years I *have* known a handful of marriages like the one you seem to have, where the couple – both the wife and the husband – seems to have made a good choice in a life-long partner. They enjoy stimulating conversations together; have similar interests in activities away from the home; share similar views in areas of importance; and have a healthy respect for times away from each other. These unions are not the norm, however.
Most couples, particularly JW/Christian couples that I know, only tolerate each other for the sake of staying together. They seem more interested in living by biblical edict (no divorcing) than in being with someone they actually like being around. I allege that if it weren’t “disapproved by God” or (in the case of JWs) a matter of judicial action, there’d be a whole lot more “failed” marriages.
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Well, in my case I don't see any reason why your friends would have to be the same sex. I wouldn't feel threatened if Doug had women friends. I've gone out for drinks and a movie with my boss, who is male. Just yesterday I went shopping with him to help him pick out new furniture for the office.
think41self
What a healthy perspective!
I think that if more married people would come to understand that having platonic friends of the opposite sex is not a an indication of one’s desire to “know” someone different, there’d be more happy marriages. You have to admit though: your liberal viewpoint where it doesn’t bother you when Doug talks/associates with his female friends (apart from you) is not common. Most women would have a fit!
As far as staying interested in the same person year after year, alot of that depends on whether that person continues their own personal growth, which makes for stimulating conversation...at any stage of life.
I agree. I think that is one of the primary causes of “failed” marriages – the stagnation of the relationships (read “boring”) when one, or both, stop personal growth. Good point.
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Been studying and meditating on that subject for lo, these past few years, teejay. Here's what I had to say about it a year or so back: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=4864&site=3
COMF,
I remember that thread. I even posted to it.
I think the viewpoint you expressed there is natural and more widespread than many people are willing to admit. The reason more people don’t follow through with their genuine feelings has nothing to do with their satisfaction/dissatisfaction with their mate. What ‘society’, their friends, their family thinks if they do anything other than stay ‘successfully’ married has the greater impact on people’s behavior.
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I can’t help but notice that, so far, it’s women who seem to disagree with my initial post and Comf, the only male contributor so far, agrees. There’s a reason for that, I think. It has to do with the way men and women are made and what we mutually expect from marriage.
Above, Heaven said that, “True love is not just about sex.” Too many articles in Cosmo have been written pointing to the different viewpoints men and women have toward sex. The point is, generally speaking women are more satisfied with monogamy than men – biologically, emotionally, etc.
Actually, this thread isn’t about either “love” or sex. It’s not about whether it’s possible to keep one’s word by staying in a marriage for decades. It’s about the insane idea that a person could ever hope to be truly satisfied with a single, solitary relationship their ENTIRE life, “till death do us part.” As a rule, I don’t think they can.
peaceloveharmony

teejay said
Want to go to a movie with a person of the opposite sex? Gotta be with your marriage mate (unless it’s with your buds of the same sex).
Want to go to breakfast on a Saturday morning with a person of the opposite sex? Has to be the mate.
Want to sit at home on a Saturday night and have a nice, provocative conversation about Afghanistan or the price of rice in China (neither of which happens to be your mate’s favorite subjects)? Sorry. Somewhere in there, there better be the mate.
Get my point? If you want to do something, anything, with a person of the opposite sex, it has to be the same person. All the time.
and i say OY! if that's marriage, i'm staying single! i have many male friends now and if i ever get into a relationship again, sorry but my friends come with me. my relationship with a man will not make me drop my male friends. if i want to go to breakfast with my buddy josh and my man has a problem with that then he won't be my man for much longer. and the same goes for my man, i'd not expect him to stop being friends with a chick to make me feel more secure. that's my problem.
i do have to say, it is a scary thought at times that once i get married, i'll never have sex with another person who isn't my mate. but i think it can be done and obviously is done.
i really think it takes the right two people. and tracy's right when she says
As far as staying interested in the same person year after year, alot of that depends on whether that person continues their own personal growth, which makes for stimulating conversation...at any stage of life.
i think if you limit who you allow yourself to be friends with stunts your growth as well.
personal rant time lol
i have problems with guys i meet. things seem all cool at first, they don't mind me being me, that's what made them interested in me in the first place right? but i seem to find these men that once things start to get more serious, they can't handle the real me and try to change me! don't talk like that, don't wear such a short skirt, don't hug everyone. bah! that's me! and i refuse any longer to change myself to fit into their defination of me.
anyway, teejay, interesting thread. as a single person, these threads teach me a lot and help me re-define what i want in a relationship. and what i don't want.
love
h
A good friend is someone who will come and bail you out of jail, but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "That was f**king awesome."
joelbear

Teejay,
I admire your honesty on the issue.
My thoughts are that woman's evolutionary track led her to monogamy to insure that her offspring had the best chance for survival. The more women, the more children, the less chance for her kids.
I believe man's evolutionary track led him to polygamy. The more kids, the more likely some of them would survive.
Marriage is a social construct that tends to help politicians and rulers to keep everything homogenous enough to keep a form of peace and allow for economic growth. Unstable families create unstable societies.
The birth control pill changed the landscape of humanity forever. When discussing top ten events of the millenium, the birth control pill was always at the top of my list. With control over the event of children as an outcome of sex, monogamy becomes irrelevant biologically and is only relevant because women are still socialized to marry and insist on monogamy.
As far as a wife not allowing platonic opposite sex friends. That seems to me to be specifically a matter of trust. I would not want to live with someone who did not trust me totally and I them.
Homosexual relationships outside of marriage are even more irrelevant since they can not bear children, nor are they likely to replace heterosexual relations unless the married man is actually homosexual and not bisexual.
I think its interesting to watch societal forces try to rein in biological forces.
Joel
LB

Get my point? If you want to do something, anything, with a person of the opposite sex, it has to be the same person. All the time.
I haven't those restrictions in my marriage. I have female friends and go scuba diving or cycling with them, go to breakfast or give them a call just to visit. Sounds like the green eyed monster has showed up in your marriage.

Never Squat With Yer Spurs On
teejay

if i want to go to breakfast with my buddy josh and my man has a problem with that then he won't be my man for much longer. and the same goes for my man, i'd not expect him to stop being friends with a chick to make me feel more secure. that's my problem.
i do have to say, it is a scary thought at times that once i get married, i'll never have sex with another person who isn't my mate. but i think it can be done and obviously is done.
PLH,
I could prove to be very wrong about this, but I think your chances aren’t very good (probably less than 5%) of finding an eventual husband who wouldn’t have a very serious problem with you getting up on a Saturday morning and telling him that, “hey, I’m going for breakfast with my male friend Billy Bob.” And again, I could be wrong, but I think YOU’D have a problem if your husband did the same, leaving you at home in a cold bed all by yourself. Slap me if I'm wrong about that.
It’s okay to have friends, but in degrees marriage, by its nature, tends to exclude exterior relationships. The thing is, marriage itself, the implied commitment to one person exclusively, throws off what I view as the normal attitudes you expressed.
After thinking about it for years, I think two things seem to be at work here. For one, most people have insecurities and look for “happiness” not from within but from without – from others – particularly from their significant other (boy-/ girlfriend or mate).
Stemming from that is a related component – that virtually every person I’ve ever known really doesn’t enjoy his or her own company. They may tolerate it at times, but actually ENJOY being alone? Not a common human trait. People tend to find (or WANT to find) enjoyment only in the company of others.
So, when “marriage” (read: “exclusive, committed relationship”) enters the already unstable mix, seeing someone’s significant other having fun with someone they might just end up with is a bit disconcerting for most people. “what if they like the other person better and leaves me?” “what am I going to do all alone?” “I don’t want to be alone.” “I can’t make it by myself.”
i have problems with guys i meet. things seem all cool at first, they don't mind me being me, that's what made them interested in me in the first place right? but i seem to find these men that once things start to get more serious, they can't handle the real me and try to change me! don't talk like that, don't wear such a short skirt, don't hug everyone. bah! that's me! and i refuse any longer to change myself to fit into their defination of me.
Funny. Very true, but still funny. Seen it a bunch of times. Even participated in the game myself, once upon a time.
It’s all about control, baby, another dynamic found in most relationships. Personally, I’ve always liked it when my woman dressed, uh... provocatively. Stylish, not trashy, but let some skin show, girlfriend! Again, the thing is, people (in your case, men) are insecure. They have a hard time when other men find their woman attractive. They might lose her, right? And if THAT happens, they’ll be... guess what? All alone.
Hope you find a secure man, PLH. Good luck!!
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Me (in initial post): Now, with this in mind, mix marriage into this simple equation, marriage being a man-made, life-long commitment to JUST ONE person of the other sex.
Joel,
First, I guess (in your case) my initial post was a bit more exclusive than it needed to be. I could have easily left out “of the opposite sex” without changing the meaning in the least. Apologies, dude.
You made some very good points in your post, especially those relative to the evolutionary development of men and women. That’s what I was getting at above. Seeing a Nature/Discovery Channel documentary on a pride of lions or a troop of monkeys reveals that when it comes to long-term, monogamous relationships, males of the human species haven’t evolved very much beyond wild animals in their impulses – not that there’s anything wrong with that! (Seinfeld)
Marriage is a social construct that tends to help politicians and rulers to keep everything homogenous enough to keep a form of peace and allow for economic growth. Unstable families create unstable societies.
I think its interesting to watch societal forces try to rein in biological forces.
Very good points, Joel.
Stable families definitely contribute to stable neighborhoods, communities, states and nations, and in this marriage plays a crucial role. The chances of the marital relationship becoming outdated or even obsolete aren’t realistic. It will be a viable, oft sought after goal of most people – men and women – as they reach adulthood. The desire to have a family is an evolutionary impulse that is still quite strong.
Still, marriage – the exclusive, restrictive, only one man/one woman FOREVER type relationship – is not for everybody and, under objective scrutiny, not necessarily the epitome of sanity for ANYbody.

taboo

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