Symposium with a talk about "Human Apostates"

by Prime 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Prime

  No doubt that Rutherford presented one side to the US and another to the German authorities, a proud tradition of the WT that continues to this day.

  That is why you pull quotes from newer Awakes that make Rutherford look like he was all against the Nazis from the start, quotes that imply a total opposition that is at odds with the letter to Hitler and the Declaration of Facts.

  He was trying to kiss up to Hitler, and threw the Jews under the bus in the process; he calls them out by name and repeats the old insults about the business Jew, the Jew banker.

  Yes, it was not far under the surface of many christian religions of the day, but of course the WT is the TRUTH, the WAY; it should have known better and the revisionists at Bethel have misled the rank and file on this one; they made us all think that the WT was totally righteous during the Nazi run up to power.

  The letters to German authorities and the Declaration of Facts speak for themselves, Prime; if they don't convince you that Rutherford tried to cozy up to Hitler nothing I can say will change your mind; if the anti-semitic references in his writing aren't obvious to you, nothing more to be said.

  The Watchtower Society's opposition to National Socialism was made known before Hitler was granted dictatorial powers.

  The Golden Age and Consolation magazines often drew attention to the militaristic stirrings in Germany. In 1929, more than three years before Hitler came to power, the German edition of The Golden Age boldly stated: “National Socialism is . . . a movement that is acting . . . directly in the service of man’s enemy, the Devil.”
  
  There's several indicators that Adolf Hitler and his henchmen (men that served directly under Hitler and Himmler in the Schutzstaffel (protection squadron)) were wired into the occult prior to becoming a political party.
  
  “Old insults” was not the foundation of Nazism. Amongst other things, the Third Reich was on a deadly quest for "human perfection."
  
  http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/deadlymedicine/
  
  From 1933 to 1945, Nazi Germany carried out a campaign to "cleanse" German society of individuals viewed as biological threats to the nation's "health." Enlisting the help of physicians and medically trained geneticists, psychiatrists, and anthropologists, the Nazis developed racial health policies that began with the mass sterilization of "genetically diseased" persons and ended with the near annihilation of European Jewry.
  
  Deadly Medicine: Creating the Master Race inspires reflection on the continuing attraction of biological utopias that promote the possibility of human perfection.
  Nazism: biological racism, political extremism (fascism) is not ingenious with anything published by Jehovah's Witnesses now or early in the twentieth century. They were non-political.

  The letter to the Third Reich was nothing other than what was stated by the United States holocaust museum.

  http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005433
  
  Initially, leaders of the Jehovah's Witnesses sought to find a way to work with the Nazi government.

  If they're so wrong, maybe you should e-mail them and explain things. I'm sure they'll yank the whole article and dishonor the memories of martyrs just like you and your cronies do.
• 

  Retrovirus

  @Prime, you posted

  Few or many, there are individuals that have done things described in the talk.
  
  "For instance, in one country a news report instigated by apostates falsely stated that Jehovah’s witnesses supported Hitler’s regime during world war two."

  http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/hitler-nazi.php

  Can you point to to where this article alleges that Jehovah's witnesses supported Hitler's regime?

  Thanks, Retro
• 

  Rattigan350

  Not so fast.

  One thing that I noticed is that it says apostates stop and discourage the preaching work.

  However the point of that statement is that the preachers are their sales force. One way to not get people to drop off the sales force, is to get them to believe that stopping or slowing down is a sign of apostacy and they don't want that.

  It's all about keeping the sales force active.
• 

  Pistoff

  Prime:

  You are a master at missing the point and straw man arguments.

  I'm sure they'll yank the whole article and dishonor the memories of martyrs just like you and your cronies do.

  I never dishonored anyone's memory; I said that witnesses did not die in the numbers Jews did, and that the WT has exaggerated the issue. So I have cronies now? Actually, I sit by myself in my home and type this out, no help from my cronies.

  The article says this:

  Initially, leaders of the Jehovah's Witnesses sought to find a way to work with the Nazi government.

  THAT is what the quote from the letter and Declaration of Facts proves, and what the 'human apostates' were trying to point out to head in the sand types: the WT TRIED TO WORK WITH THE NAZIS.

  From your own source: they sought a way to work with the Nazi government.

  There's several indicators that Adolf Hitler and his henchmen (men that served directly under Hitler and Himmler in the Schutzstaffel (protection squadron)) were wired into the occult prior to becoming a political party.

  What does that mean to you? Do you think that the Nazis were more evil because of an imaginary devil, red horns and all?

  The Nazis were the embodiment of human evil; no need to invent invisible devils.
• 

  jwfacts

  "For instance, in one country a news report instigated by apostates falsely stated that Jehovah’s witnesses supported Hitler’s regime during world war two."

  http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/hitler-nazi.php

  Prime, are you suggesting that I am being referred to by that statement. I did not instigate any news reports. Neither does the article on jwfacts.com say Jehovah's Witnesses supported Hitler. It quotes in full comments from Rutherford that showed support of some of Hitler's ideal and against the Jews, and allows the reader to draw their own conclusion. I even quote the Watchtower's later explanation and justification, to present a balanced presentation.

  What you have posted is terribly dishonest. For instance, “MOST are not content to simply leave the faith they once viewed as true. They want to take others with them. Rather than going out and making their own disciples, many apostates seek to draw away Christ’s disciples after themselves. Most do simply leave the religion and move on with their lives.

  There are tens of thousands of "apostates" registered on this web site, yet how many are trying to draw disciples after themselves? I could count on one hand the number that may have set up their own religion, and most of those are very difficult to take seriously. The Christian ones most active in trying to help people leave are not trying to get people to follow themselves, but rather to follow Christ, taking offence that the Governing Body tries to put inself in place of Jesus as mediator.

  What is surprising to people that email me, and highlights the dishonesty of the talks against apostates, is that I do not tell people where to go. I tell them they should draw their own conclusions after reading all points of view. I have even told some, due to the information they provide, that it may be the wise thing to remain a JW. The over-the-top information from the Watchtower is very counter-productive, as people coming to jwfacts.com are completely taken by surprise by the tone of the information, and as they read it can very often realise in a matter of hours that they had spent their lives in a cult.

  Maybe you will get to that point too, one day. Hanging out on jehovahs-witness.net has been able to get through the indoctrination of many that held similar views to yourself.
• 

  DATA-DOG

  " Why don't they say, "We are only referring to ones who meet this description, not all apostates"? "

  Good question. Why don't they say, " Brothers and Sisters, there have been members of Jehovah's Witnesses who have felt that we did not have a correct understanding of God's word at various times. They have even contributed to our better understanding of God's word through their personal, prayerful study. Their more correct understanding of God's word has even been accepted and published in our magazines. Those brothers and sisters who bring attention to misunderstandings and help all to gain a more accurate picture of God's word are NOT apostates, and we should appreciate their sincere efforts to speak correct words of truth."

  They could then say, " These sincere followers of Christ would be recognized by their Christlike manner. While bringing up points for further clarfication, they would never seek to draw away disciples after themselves. They would be easily distinguished from true apostates who are of the anti-christ. Never would we want to accuse one of our brothers or sisters of apostasy in an off-hand manner. Apostasy carries the sentence of everlasting destruction, and is a serious charge."

  Problem solved. Those with weak consciences will stop attacking others, and there will be no bitter feelings for some because they will not be falsely accused of a serious crime against God. It won't happen though, because legalism and corporate thinking has infected every aspect of the WTBTS. Without the apostate boogeyman, they lose the atmosphere of distrust and fear that creates the " Us verses Them " attitude that makes Jehovah's Witnesses feel chosen by God specifically, and motivates the adherents. Without the fear or discipline by "Mother", without strict "unity", the organization would disintergrate because it is from men and does not have God's backing.

  Walsh Trial:

  Q. Back to the point now. A false prophesy was promulgated?
  A. I agree that.
  
  Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovah's Witnesses?
  
  A. That is correct.
  
  Q. If a member of Jehovah's Witnesses took the view himself that that prophesy was wrong and said so he would be disfellowshipped?
  
  A.Yes, if he said so and kept persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erronious and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across then there is disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching. When a change comes it should come from the proper source, the head of the organisation, the governing body, not from the bottom upwards, because everybody would have ideas, and the organisation would disintegrate and go in a thousand different directions. Our purpose is to have unity.
  
  Q. Unity at all costs?
  
  A. Unity at all costs, because we believe and are sure that Jehovah God is using our organisation, the governing body of our organisation to direct it, even though mistakes are made from time to time.
  
  Q. And unity based upon an enforced acceptance of false prophecy?
  
  A. That is conceded to be true.
  
  Q. And the person who expressed his view, as you say, that it was wrong, and was disfellowshipped, would be in breach of the Covenant, if he was baptized?
  
  A. That is correct.
  
  Q. And as you said yesterday expressly, would be worthy of death?
  
  A. I think - - -
  
  Q. Would you say yes or no?
  
  A. I will answer yes, unhesitatingly.
  
  Q. Do you call that religion?
  
  A. It certainly is.
  
  Q. Do you call it Christianity?
  A. I certainly do.
• 

  DATA-DOG

  "For instance, in one country a news report instigated by apostates falsely stated that Jehovah's witnesses supported Hitler's regime during world war two."

  Can Prime or the WTBTS themselves, give the source for this alleged accusation? What news report? Which country? What was said? What was the context? Are the supposed apostates really " apostates ", or are they person that the term does not apply to? Without the WTBTS presenting ALL the information, it is impossible to go any further. Why was no source given during the fast-moving symposium? Why wasn't this subject explored in detail until the "truth" was easily discernable to all in attendance? Failing to give ALL the information can give the impression that one side or the other may have something to gain by not disclosing all the facts.

  Do Not Be a Victim of Propaganda!

  "A fool will believe anything."-PROVERBS 14:15, TODAY'S ENGLISH VERSION.

  THERE is a difference-a big difference-between education and propaganda. Education shows you how to think. Propaganda tells you what to think. Good educators present all sides of an issue and encourage discussion. Propagandists relentlessly force you to hear their view and discourage discussion. Often their real motives are not apparent. They sift the facts, exploiting the useful ones and concealing the others. They also distort and twist facts, specializing in lies and half-truths. Your emotions, not your logical thinking abilities, are their target.The propagandist makes sure that his message appears to be the right and moral one and that it gives you a sense of importance and belonging if you follow it. You are one of the smart ones, you are not alone, you are comfortable and secure-so they say.......

  Put information to the test:

  "Beloved ones," said John, a first-century Christian teacher, "do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions." (1 John 4:1) Some people today are like sponges; they soak up whatever they come across. It is all too easy to absorb whatever is around us.But it is far better for each individual personally to choose what he will feed his mind. It is said that we are what we eat, and this can apply to food for both the body and the mind. No matter what you are reading or watching or listening to, test to see whether it has propagandistic overtones or is truthful. Moreover, if we want to be fair-minded, we must be willing to subject our own opinions to continual testing as we take in new information. We must realize that they are, after all, opinions.....

  Their trustworthiness depends on the validity of our facts, on the quality of our reasoning, and on the standards or values that we choose to apply. ( These key areas are where JW's fall short. It only takes 1 area. They fail in all 3.)

  1) The "facts" they recieve do not meet the GB/FDS's criteria for "truth."

  2) They cannot reason effectively because of bias and circular reasoning.

  3) Values? They are not open-minded. They do not encourage discussion. Ultimately they value their sense of security/belonging and are loyal to the " Organization" above all else, including God's word.

  TRUTH:

  According to the GB, what is truth? What criteria must information meet in order to be "the truth?" Here is the definition of truth from the " GOD'S WORD IS TRUTH" District Convention. This is the GB/FDS sanctioned definition of "truth." This definition should be used to test everything the WTBTS has ever taught or currently teaches.

  TRUTH = GOD'S WORD/CHRIST'S TEACHINGS

  THE TRUTH = CORRECT UNDERSTANDING OF GOD'S WORD.

  TRUTH = MUST NOT CONTRADICT OTHER "TRUTH."

  TRUTH = DOES NOT CHANGE.

  TRUTH = MUST BE FREE OF MEN'S ASSUMPTIONS OR SPECULATIONS. GOD'S PROHETS DID NOT SPECULATE OR MAKE ASSUMPTIONS.
• 

  Vidiot

  God, it's like Rutherford was Russell's polar opposite.

  Russel had a full luxurious beard, Rutherford hated facial hair. Russel disdained organization, Rutherford demanded it. Russel was a Zionist, Rutherford was an anti-semite. The list goes on...

  Pistoff - "But he was no better than the churches he later loved to revile for doing nothing about the holocaust..."

  Oh, yeah; in another life, he and Father Coughlin would have been BFFs.

  I will say this, though; whether Rutherford's condemnation of other churches' Holocaust complicity was sincere or not, the horrors of the Holocaust (once they reached public awareness) did cure thousands of people of any latent anti-semitism they might have had... a prejudicial worldview that's directly observed being taken to its inevitable (and appalling) extreme has a tendency to do that.

  Hell, in the RCC, unrepentant anti-semitism has (officially, at least) become an excommunicable offence (better late than never, I suppose).

  Similar things have been happening with gays and lesbians in the present day; the appalling treatment they've endured in the global south has indirectly prompted a great deal of empathy in the developed world, followed by better understanding and tolerance, which can't help but inevitably spread back to the global south (thank God it hasn't taken a World War to do it).
• 

  Londo111

  BTW...my apologies for forgetting. It's hard to keep up with this forum sometimes.

  Welcome, Prime! Obviously, I don’t agree with your views, but having a JW apologist does liven things up from time to time. I get to express myself to an actual JW, whereas in person, it is impossible to have such a conversation and not get shut down immediately.
• 

  DATA-DOG

  "There is a symposium with a talk about "Human Apostates" that is very slanderous and defamatory and has the ex-JW blogosphere up in arms over it."

  If a person doesn't fit the description outlined in this talk, the talk isn't referring to you."

  When this phrase is ran through the Jw " Translatotronitron" device that I have invented, ( pictured below) it tells us what Prime really means.

  ( Read in the Star Trek computer voice....)

  " The Governing Body of the WTBTS has authorized me to come to JWN and try and stop you from speaking about the " apostate " talk. It is a huge deal, and we really screwed up. Our image is bad enough already. I will attempt to deflect the true impact of the talk by saying the following:

  "There is a symposium with a talk about "Human Apostates" that is very slanderous and defamatory and has the ex-JW blogosphere up in arms over it." If a person doesn't fit the description outlined in this talk, the talk isn't referring to you." Of course, this merely confirms that it is a big deal and the GB needs all of you apostates to shut the hell up.....