ADCMS - I agree with you. I suspect he/she/them/it hasn't been within a mile of CoC.
Introduction and a note on several posts here
by LizO 95 Replies latest jw experiences
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EdenOne
I second what Phizzy said:
I found most individual JW's to be sincere, good people, who wanted to do what was right. Many were loving in a way far beyond that which the WT expects.
To the OP,
Being an ex-Elder who stepped down for personal reasons (no sin, and no knowledge of TTATT than), I know a thing of two about the inner workings of a congregation, even of a Circuit. What always stroke me as impressive about "us" - and I speak this way because it's a known fact that I'm still an active Witness, for how long it remains to be seen as there are other factors at play - is precisely the quality of the people, the rank and file, the humble brothers and sisters. Even most of the MS and Elders are perfectly sincere in what they do. I have good friends within the congregation, although I know well that the day I'm not a Witness they will turn their backs on me, because the wat they are indoctrinated, they equate leaving the organization as leaving Jehovah and Christ.
In any case, the average human quality of the people within the congregation is the only redeeming quality I see in being a Witness.
Now, regarding doctrine, a deeper study of the Bible will convince you that the original flaw of the Jehovah's Witnesses, originally Bible Students, was their beliefs being an ersats of Millerism, reengineered over the years to fit the purpose of advancing a gigantic publishing corporation. Many, many core doctrines of the Witnesses, mainly in what concerns with PROPHECY, are entirely WRONG. And this is no small issue, because it's precisely because of the peculiar interpretation of the prophecies that the Witnesses are shaped the way they are, and their expectations towards the future are what they are.
What I find especially revolting is the dishonesty involved in the re-writing of our own history. This is a clear indicator that the people running the Organization are well aware of what they're doing. They may be doctrinally deluded, but organizationally, they are perfectly aware of the perfidious scheme they're running. In turn, this leads to dishonesty, because once you establish in your mind that the "organization" is God's tool, then any means justify the ends, that is, the "organization" must be defended and upheld at all cost.
Finally, the religious practice. I believe this is, in many cases, a matter of taste. However, I agree that the shunning practice is absolutely despicable and unjustified and is used as a tool to instill fear in the rank and file, to keep the sheep in line. I think the paedophile issue is real, but often I find it to be a bit too inflated. In my years Elder, I've never had to deal - nor has even heard of - any case. So, while it's a real problem that calls for real action, and even one victim is one victim too many, this is something that is a bit overused as a throwing stone. Weren't the Organization and its Governing Body so self-righteous and above scrutiny, and the fingerpointing wouldn't be so harsh about this.
However, one word I must say about the reaction of some here: While the Witnesses are dogmatic about having "the truth", many here are just as dogmatic about having "the Truth About The truth". Sometimes that makes the debate and conversation being a bit skewed. you can't defend the Witnesses and the organization about anything, that someone, or many, will jump on you immediatly. In a way, I find it understandable that many feel hurt, tricked and wronged by the Organization. But in being so, they sometimes lack objectivity in their criticism and jump any wagon that says "anti-watchtower". On the other hand, it's remarkable that there is zero tolerance here for untruthful anti-watchtower claims.
So it's up to you if you want to remain in such environment.
Eden
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LizO
Now, I am kind of speechless but apparently I offended certain people. I have been called among other
- "Troll"
- "dead from the neck up"
- "Dark Side of the Fence"
- " never cared enough to raise your head above the trenches"
- " sees what she wants to see"
- " avoid dealing with the discomfort of the truth"
- " your statements cannot be taken seriously"
all of which is neither true nor can I understand which of my words justified all that. In any case, fact is for sure that I offended people and that's why I say sorry. Please excuse me.
I also am happy that I have read a lot of posts of people who my feeling was understood my point and tried to build/comment on that.
I want to add 2 comments to the discussion and then I will give you the last word and not respond as a focused discussion is difficult (I tried starting a focused discussion on page 1/2 of this thread but totally failed. I asked specific questions and gave specific answers. Next thing was people would talk about something different or not respond. So I dont see any point in giving precise responses anymore in this particular thread).
1) A couple of people said I lacked proof of my "accusations" that JWs incl. GB are basically good people with good intentions. I see it differently: The proof I provide is my recollection of hundreds of encounters I had with those people. Also, generally if I say someone is good because of my experience, I believe the burden of proof should lie within someone who states the opposite saying a person/group is evil.
To recapitulate my point, I just don't see that your arguments provided any proof that the GB is evil. Please remember that none other than Ray Franz (which certain people seem to have high respect for - I literally fell off my chair when I noticed certain reactions upon my critism of him, especially that it was concluded I would be a spy?!?!?!?!?! :O) also was a GB -member and ran the show about as much as anyone else, also through 1975!! Now, you seem to agree that he was someone with good intentions (and I think he says the same of the other people in the GB) but because of the dynamics and their deep beliefs the group did what they did.
The example of Franz simply shows that people do contribute to questionable situations without being deliberately corrupt. Also remember that he precisely wrote articles/reasonings which can be – in the aftermath – be classified as (intellectually) dishonest.
2) I now understand that the loud reactions I caused are partly due to the deep feelings against the organization because of separated lives. Here, apparently I have a different point of view/philosophy. Based on my understanding that the organization is full of people with good intentions, I see myself as having been part of the machine. Consequently, I am as much responsible to any situation which might have resulted from being there as any other person might be. Of course, I fully understand that this would absolutely be NOT the case for persons which didn't join really voluntarily but were convinced to join, perhaps with false/wrong expectations.
As mentioned above, that's my last comment on that thread. Please feel free to respond and close the discussion. I am always happy to have further/new discussions but prerequisite would be that we only talk about a well-defined topic with narrow scope. Only in that way I believe is it possible to react and build on one other’s comments.
Also, for the record: You are wrong: I read CoC dilligently but I understand different people come to different conclusions based on their feelings and what they want to believe (every organization on earth, even family, has things going on in there as described by Franz - yet not all are evil). A lso, it's wrong that I am a spy/farce. I really am speechless how you could come up with that. Totally speechless and can't understand why you are using this self-confident arrogant tone when saying that.
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AndDontCallMeShirley
EdenOne:
In any case, the average human quality of the people within the congregation is the only redeeming quality I see in being a Witness.
Agreed. And, well said. As Ray noted in CoC, he observed that many high-ranking ones within the Org were also good men- DESPITE the rules and policies WT expected them to follow. Their decent human qualities motivated them to treat others with human kindness, even while the Org. was telling them to do otherwise.
Liz:
I am always happy to have further/new discussions but prerequisite would be that we only talk about a well-defined topic with narrow scope.
Your topic went south because you made sweeping accusations and questioned the character of the majority of people on this forum. It was neither well-defined nor narrow. And, you may feel you offered "proof" for your claims but, in reality, you did not. Taking issue with the words of one or two people cannot be used to judge a forum with thousands (?) of members; it doesn't even mean the people you take issue with are wrong. And, as has been noted, when a topic is introduced regarding WT doctrines, WT scandals, etc., more times than not there's also ample evidence presented to back up the claims. You may not like what the evidence reveals but that doesn't mean it isn't true.
As EdenOne said: What I find especially revolting is the dishonesty involved in the re-writing of our own history. This is a clear indicator that the people running the Organization are well aware of what they're doing. They may be doctrinally deluded, but organizationally, they are perfectly aware of the perfidious scheme they're running
So, if you're shocked that many here do not believe you when you claim you've read CoC, one reason why is Ray gave many, many examples of how WT has re-written history and falsified publications-all to pull a "fast one" on JWs. That is not an "honest mistake". If you say you've read CoC, I won't argue with you. Just realize that your conclusions are the exact opposite of anyone here who's read it.
Also, it's wrong that I am a spy/farce. I really am speechless how you could come up with that.
Because we've seen enough fakes, spies and trolls here to recognize the pattern. Liz, you may be sincere, but when your words and tone resemble that used by insincere people who come here only to cause trouble, don't be shocked when your motivations are questioned.
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nonjwspouse
LizO , are you familiar with the tone? It is the one I hear when listening to a JW comment on my religion, pretty much any JW that is.
I agree that Ray was not evil, but do not agree that he ran the show just as much as anyone else. He was not listened to many times and pionts he tried to make fell on deaf ears. Yes, he was part ofthe GB, and recognises how he adversly affected peoples lives. He also was awakened to his being a "Captive of a Concept" and did much research and reflection on this. The foundation of the WT is what is flawed, not just individual people within it. It is the foundation of the WT that is attacked ( as well as some people that use it to harm others) . Most people in this forum admit the JW individuals are generally genuine, good ( though misguided) people. But the foundation and the heairarchy behind the WT guides people into doing things that are cruel and unloving, cloking it in the name of "obedience and love". This is crazymaking. The WT heirarchial organization can also attract people with some serious personality needs. It feeds into those who are needing to feel power and importance. Then those same people can be cast aside in a heartbeat as if they didn't matter ( because in reality the WT is the only thing that matters within the organization) . ( Not suggesting that is the case with everyone, or anyone in this thread, just an example) This can be a lethel combination. The high emotions that go with that are understandable and to be expected, correct?
Now, the current GB has been increasingly changing WT history, and that is not unintentional. It can't be. THIS causes people to feel like the GB is intentinally misleading people, because they ARE. They know what is going in the publications. They have access to the complete history of writings. They know. They produce things like the Sparlock video, and people who are awake get upset. For some still in the WT it triggers their Conscience to wake up to the nonsense. This can be very painful.
I hope you continue to read this forum to see the reasoning behind the strong comments made to what in this forum are highly charged comments.
I have learnd a lot from this postings here.
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punkofnice
As mentioned above, that's my last comment on that thread.
Fair enough. Mine too then.
Please feel free to respond and close the discussion.
Fair enough. Nowt to say really lass.
I am always happy to have further/new discussions but prerequisite would be that we only talk about a well-defined topic with narrow scope.
LOL. TBH. You get what you get. I don't think you can chain the forum down with your own rules.
Only in that way I believe is it possible to react and build on one other’s comments.
all the best with that then.
OK. Fire away....................
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AndDontCallMeShirley
Liz, p. 5- (I tried starting a focused discussion on page 1/2 of this thread but totally failed. I asked specific questions and gave specific answers. Next thing was people would talk about something different or not respond. So I dont see any point in giving precise responses anymore in this particular thread).
Actually Liz offered not a shred a proof in the entire thread and nothing was "precise". What Liz did offer is:
according to my experience
as I believe
I simply know
I don't see
But I can't see
But what simply not remotely fits my experience
My feeling is
and my personal assessment
I have no doubt
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Liz, personal opinions and feelings are not proof of anything. When you make claims you need to offer evidence.
And, if you re-read the thread, you'll also note that many here did agree with you that JWs are good people. Some still have family active as JWs. And, most here asked you for evidence to substantiate your claim that JWN members are lying or presenting false information, so we could discuss something concrete. You offered no evidence whatsoever. And still have not....
An example of your rebuttals with "proof" is the following, when punkofnice asked you about the WT Warwick projest:
On Warwick I told you, I don't see any connection to enjoyment of funds. They are moving the Bethel out of Brooklyn, most likely because with half the money they get from that they can build Warwick and the other half they can use for other activities. So, am I wrong?
Totally speculative. Liz just assumes what the WT is doing with the money and why, but it's offered as "proof".
Another example:
I really don't see the lying point. Leadership might be accused of intellectual dishonesty. But I can't see that they would be delibireately lying
Here again, your feelings are equated as fact, but you offered no evidence proving that the claims made on this forum are "deliberate lies".
Liz's word choices are significant. She uses the words "I don't/can't see" frequently throughout this thread. In PNF and other studies of psychology, using those words actually prevents her from seeing evidence or differing views. They are a mental roadblock to opening the mind to differing views and expanding one's knowledge. Thus, she remains protected in her self-created world.
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Iown Mylife
Ray did NOT run any show. C of C has been a beautiful gift to my life. I can never express the amount of appreciation i have for that book and to Ray for writing it. That man loved people and used his talent to help them, in every stage of his life.
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ABibleStudent
LizO - You are wrong: I read CoC dilligently but I understand different people come to different conclusions based on their feelings and what they want to believe (every organization on earth, even family, has things going on in there as described by Franz -
Hi LizO, Do you know what "cognitive dissonance" is? If you do not know what it means than use Google or another browser to search for definitions on the internet. In my opinion you are experiencing cognitive dissonance because of the WTBTS's BITE control. Please read Steve Hassan's books that I wrote about in my first post in this thread or visit his website to learn more about how BITE control can unduly influence a person.
According to your 1st post, you no longer trust the Bible and are no longer an active JW, and you " find lots of things on this forum dishonest and distressing and certain accusations are straight-out ridiculous and illogical." You sound just like a person I know who was Df'ed about 20 years ago. He no longer believes in God nor that the Bible is God's word, but does believe that the WTBTS has the correct interpretation of the Bible. As a never been JW, if I did not believe in the Bible I would feel that the WTBTS is very wrong instead of believing that it has a correct interpretation of the Bible as you and the exJW I know believes.
Have you heard of the term " Ockham's razor"? If you do not know the term, please search for a definition using the internet or go to a library. It is a principle used in logic and problem solving and would be a usely method to evaluate what is written on JWN and other websites. It is also a principle that the WTBTS would not like JWs to use, because JWs would not blindly follow the GB.
I look forward to more posts from you on JWN and please refrain from making generalized statements, provide references to prove you points, and (I know this will be difficult for you because it is for me) take a deep breath before responding to what you believe are personal attacks and instead ask clarifying questions.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
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AndDontCallMeShirley
ABibleStudent-
Beautifully stated, Robert. Nice post.
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In my previous post I said: In PNF and other studies of psychology
I meant NLP. I know someone will probably catch that error.