Right on Barb
Article: It's Time to Outlaw Extreme Shunning in Modern Society
by AndersonsInfo 183 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Athanasius
Right on Barbara.
Educating the public is the key to ending the Watchtower shunning practices, especially here in the US where the Borg gets most of their donations.
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ABibleStudent
to AndersonsInfo/Barbara. I love your passion and principles.
Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,
Robert
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GLTirebiter
Even if they pass a law against the shunning, that will not stop the attitude behind the practice. The lack of love and concern will show through even as they go through the motions of being "family" to appease the authorities. The point is to punish; if they cannot overtly banish, they will find other ways to inflict the pain. The sinister aspect of the Watchtower shunning policy is that it teaches members, especially children, that such behavior is not only acceptable, but also admirable--and mandatory.
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blondie
Does this include the Amish and other religious groups that practice extreme shunning. Might be a lot to deal with in the US.
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Band on the Run
It never ceases to amaze me how stupid people here are! I don't mean low IQS but people who have no clue what goes in America, what the press does, how the government works, how articles are written in actual journals. Some times it is too much for me and I just want to never, ever return. Without fail, I stumble upon a post that totally changes my mind. There are posters here I would love to have as friends in real life. I would work hard to be able to work with them. Brilliant minds,witty, sophisticated people. Of course, seeking people who were once JWs has its drawbacks. It draws peoplel who know nothing. Any stray thought is great if it takes the WT, no matter what the personal cost to themselves.
This is only the most recent example. I understand wanting to stop disfellowshiping. Pls after many decades, the mere mention of certain terms sends me into an emotional spin of utter rage. Why did God hate me so much that I was born a Witness? I had NO control. It was never my idea. Never, Never. I always hated the Witesses- as long as I was conscious--. Before I understood any doctrine, I hated them. Stupid brothers. Ideas that even kids in the deepest and most notorious ghettos or deepest West Virginia would laugh at.
I will never say trust me. The Internet can provide answers. Watch TV. I can't stand what i see on TV. Not every "expert." If I needed money, I could easily become a prfessional anti-JW apologist. Just right any garbage and ex Jws will worship me instead of Bethel. Yes, take it from me. I always saw worship of Nathan Knorr or Freddy Franz more than Jehovah worship. Any Bethelite who walks in to the door, all bow down and worship. Well, thru no effort, skill, or IQ on my part, I happened to hear on the ride home all the details of how the Bethelite just worshipped is one the most evil, low, conniving...stragith from former Bethelites in touch with friends who remain at Bethel.
There is so much here that everyone at any skill or educational level can accomplish so much. Some people think they are experts on law and organizing. They are legends in their own time. I am not criticizing it all! 99 per cent of success is self confidence and not knowledge. In my old age, I will not waste my precious time seeing the mistakes of my teenage years repeated.
You just don't realize my expertise and knowledge of civil rights, organizing, and getting media atttention. There are people who know these things better than I do. Please. I took some courses and continued to read some scholarship. I will never be Leo. Leo can never be me.
Regardless of your case,some principles always govern. George Washington knew how to deal with the press in his day. They were never the men we were all taught in school. Lawyers cannot solve every minor grievance in life. Never did. Do not now. Never will. Nevertheless, if you need a lawyer, thank God you can find a crummy lawyer. Many people can't even imagine having lawyers.
If you had a choice between the best doctor in the world, status, office decor, best personality and character, millions of surgeries vs. someone who may decide to apply to medical school, which want would you want?
You are not facing the WT of my day. All these articles pull down your cause! I maintained silence for too long. Everyone has a valuable role to play. The person who can slay giants, slays gians. The person who designs the castle, designs the castle. All are equal.
It is not all the threads advocating treason -not technically but very much so in hard core American and British values-- in my persona life, I continue to meet extremely bright people who know a lot. Because I have many interests, I know many things. There are limits to what I can do. I can never a couture fashion designer yet I know a lot about fashion. I know actors and directors. Thanks to James Lipton's Actors Studio, I know about the process. Nevertheless, I can not get any small part even in the smalllest local theatre.
There are about three trillion ways to get media attention. I date press. National press. Lawsuits do not get you exposure. This is a vast country. Millions of people are being sued, will soon sue, or are presently involved in a trial, deposition, or alternative form of resolution. Even if the press wanted to cover everyone, there are not enough trees or Internet space to contain the coverage. I understand why you think law suits are sexy, awesome, and solve all of life's problems. Well, what do I have to do to convince you that they are not! You are seeing what is entertainment news.
I've been part of civl rights groups who do win at the Supreme Court. In all my time here, I honestly have never seen any evidence that you are remotely ready to sue. If you sue and lose, your cause is set back by fifty, one hundred, one hundred and fifty years. When the Supreme Court is about to decide issues that are very important to me, I get physically sick with nerves. I am too invested to trust the best lawyers. Please, if I don't have to deal with anything important, I might take to my bed the day the opinion is announced. Everyone involved is a bunch of nerves. If you win, you win whole hog or a tiny bit hog. Yes, I have jumped up and down, crying with relief. More likely, though, you sit and wonder if the result was worth what you lost in time and the stress is incredible. When you lose, you realize you set back your cause 100 years. It is not like Congressional or Presidential elections.
I reveal professional secrets here. Not everyone here agrees with my political views. It is always a balancing act whether to reveal something or just not do it b/c I may give an enemy secret info. to harm me. My Witness hate and respect for you is so great that I err on the side of revealing too much. Don't think I am the only lawyer here. I don't do things in half measure. Other people are upset, too.
Stop playing lawyer. You are hurting your cause. Believe me, there are professionals you could hire who could plan a co-ordinated campagin to limit the power of the Witnesses. I will not reveal everything. It reveals me to see a cause I support with my soul so messed up. Just b/c reporters call you for a comment, does not mean you know everything. The New York Times has called me. I spoke wih them. Indeed, I have experience appearing on TV shows. It does not mean I practice medicine or build bridges.
You have a unique, time limited resource in me. A New Yorker with press contacts who is so deeply involved in your cause that she would gladly make phone calls, call friends for favors. The Conti case is an annoyance for the WT. OMG, most of the time I've been alive I've been organizing first hand or studying it at elite schools or both at the same time. I don't do simple contracts or torts. There are people here who know how to do things. The last thing I need to do is to embrace a cause that is fundamentally not ready for action.
I was once a Witness. Yet I am where I am. A lot of people are higher. Nevertheless, for a born in Witness of my time period, I am in outer space and love it. Don't ever assume that the Legal Department does not read these posts. The recent arguments, acts bordering on malicously stupid, etc. must have them laughing so hard that they cannot function. Well, entertaining your enemy's lawyers so much that they are unable to represent your enemy is one solid strategy. Perhaps some groups are ripe for liberation and others are destined to never see freedom.
On a personal level, the last six months have been horrible! It pains me to see people I respect greatly behaving like kids in a playpen. Sometimes someone has to tell the truth. I hate it. Yet just visit Paul McCartney forums. People who are ardent fants tell him how to clean up his act. Indeed, people tel him what to sing and what songs he once sang so well that he should never, ever sing now. Paul needs it. You need it. This whole group needs some truth tellers to jolt you out of what is going on. The saddest part is this: you don't need to spend thousands for any campaign. There is talent here already. Why don't people set forward? Leading people too much makes you as bad as the dictator. Another large reason is why drain your time and energy in hopeless causes?
Yes, everyone here can read and write. People write books and articles. Sorry, it does not equate to doing business with the Big Boys who can take on Crooklyn. It is embarassing to write this. Also, I know some WT lawyer/executive type will read what I write. Perhaps you need a Paul Revere to warn yu to get ready for battle. You are not remotely ready to bring down the WT, not NOW, NOT IN FUTURE=UNTIL ETERNITY.
Yet I know you cuold severely limit the WT. It drives me nuts.
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adamah
ohiocowboy said:
Yes, but the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution also states that cruel and unusual punishments shall not be inflicted upon a person. I do agree that it would be a very tough road to pursue with no guarantee of outcome, but if enough attention were garnered by people, a compromise may be eventually agreed upon which would be a good start.
Sure, but the Constitution only protects citizens from the GOVERNMENT engaging in cruel and unusual punishment; it doesn't protect citizens from other citizens in religious cults who engage in cruel and unusual practices, just as long as they stay within the law. Freedom of religion and free association invariably gives them plenty of leeway, and JWs shunning has been vindicated in a prior court case as a protected practice. (I believe the case made it to the Circuit Court level? Don't quote me, though, as that's off the top of my head).
BTW, I just wrote an article on this topic on my blog, and started a new thread, suggesting an alternative approach based on the work of social psychologist Stanley Milgram (and trust and believe that the JW's GB are VERY AWARE of such studies in group control: it's right up their alley).
Here's the thread on JWN-
Adamah
Adam
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metatron
This thread seems to have gotten a bit rambling and weird. It's strange that a person who claims great experience and knowledge loses correct spelling and coherence...... but OTOH, I've posted after throwing back a few vodkas, so it happens....
A few thoughts: just because the WTS can hide behind the Bill of Rights here doesn't mean they can get away with that everywhere. I can see some Nordic countries possibly coming down on them for these outrages. And US hegemony is fading away into history.....
In addition, exposure such as Barb does (magnificent!), can hit the WTS indirectly - as with getting government officials to see them correctly as heartless cultists who exploit and injure families.
Finally, I don't see that the 1st Amendment forever protects tax exemptions - and western nations need to stop subsidizing these sociopathic thugs.
metatron
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Quarterback
This subject is a bit interesting, and confusing. Are we not agreeing to what we see happening as a hindrance to human rights through the practice of Shunning? I don't care about the Scientologists, Quakers, Adventists etc. I care about some family members who are affected by a bullying tactic. I still want the JW's to have the religious right, but not Hatred rights. Just like any Nation has a right to rule their country, but, this does not allow the practice of prejudice,and mental abuse. What is a Human Rights principle? Has mankind mastered the quality of kindness that we should stop fighting for it right now. Lately, we find the WT, Catholics taken a passive approach towards Homosexuality. The message is love the person, but not the practice, Don't become Homo phobic. But, for someone that no longer wants to beleive the same as they used to believe he/she is Mentally ill?
The WT is broken on this matter. Any attention or public announcement to this violation of Human rights should be addressed.
Good job, Barb
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MeanMrMustard
@ohiocowboy:
" Yes, but the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution also states that cruel and unusual punishments shall not be inflicted upon a person. I do agree that it would be a very tough road to pursue with no guarantee of outcome, but if enough attention were garnered by people, a compromise may be eventually agreed upon which would be a good start."
I don't think the eighth ammendment applies here. It applies to the governement, but not to private institutions.
MMM
Edit: adamah beat me to it.