The Bizarre Free Will

by John_Mann 41 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Bobcat

John:
I was having some difficulty with your english. But that is not to complain. I glad you did post in english.
Part of my answer above touches on your post.
"JW (and I prefer "WT") premises" are not necessarily correct.
But besides that, in my opinion, complete "free will" only exists with God himself. Everyone else's "free will" is limited, at best.
For example, humans might be "free" to chooses what they want to eat and when to eat. But they do not have the freedom to 'not eat.' If they attempt to 'not eat,' eventually, they lose what 'free will' they did have, by dying.
In that sense, it might be said that God gave up some of his 'complete free will' when he created other creatures.
This could be analogized by means of a single man.
As a single man, he has a certain amount of freedom.
But when he marries and has children, he concedes some of that freedom in favor of taking care of his family.
And some of that conceded freedom is bestowed on his wife and children, who gain that measure of freedom due to their relationship with the father.
You said:
Let me explain my idea:
1- Every being must possess free will.
2- If there is free will, there is the choice to evil.
3- If there is choice to evil, it can happen.
4- A perfect being can choose evil.
My response would be:
1- Every being must possess SOME free will.
2- If there is free will, there is the choice [of] evil.
This is evident from the Bible's early accounts in the Garden.
3- It there is the choice of evil, it can happen.
4- A perfect being can choose evil.
Which also means that a perfect being can choose good.
But I think a point missed is that, conceptually speaking, a perfect person can make a permanent choice. Otherwise, they might not be perfect. Certainly, in Satan's case, his choice was permanent. At least the Bible gives no indication of any change of heart on his part, despite what has happened since he chose bad.
Consider the case of the other angels. According to the Bible, many of them chose "evil" prior to the flood. Since then, there are no more indications in the Bible of any angelic deflections. Just going by the Bible record, all the angels had the opportunity to do "evil." The ones that did, stayed "evil." And the ones that did not, stayed "good." Just going by what the Bible says, they each, apparently, made a permanent choice.
Also, in Jesus case, he, as a perfect person, was tempted, implying that he could choose bad (like you said). But the Bible then speaks of him as having 'learned obedience' and being 'made perfect' from his experience. (Heb 5:8) And the Bible presents him as incorruptible. (2 Tim 1:10)
Thus, if God were to remake the universe so that it only contained perfect creatures who have made a permanent choice to do only good, then, you would, theoretically speaking, reach a point where "evil cannot happen" (contra number "3" above.)
Would it be possible that the humans in Revelation, having been made perfect thru Jesus' sacrifice, and then faced with a temptation of similar magnitude as the angel's faced prior to the flood, that they, all of them, make a permanent choice?
On the other hand, even then, if "evil can [still] happen," you could reach a point where all "evil" has been tried out and found wanting via past precedent. And so, if 'evil did happen,' it would not have to be tolerated for any length of time, as it is now.
At any rate, that is a possible reply to your thesis.
Take Care, John
John_Mann

Excuse me but I'm not a native english speaker (english it's my third language BTW).
It's not some freewill.
Even if you're limited by laws, you always have freewill to choose not accept or follow any law or limit (even natural ones, like gravity).
But you can't escape the consequences (if you jump in an abyss you will die).
John_Mann

But I think a point missed is that, conceptually speaking, a perfect person can make a permanent choice.
Exactly. If a perfect person choose the evil it's a permanent choice b/c there's no excuses (such as original sin, imperfection, satan, etc).
adamah

John Said:

Yeah but in JW theology it's not a clear issue.
Actually, it IS. In fact, it's one of the few distinctions they make which IS logically correct, and is understood and followed by the writers of their magazines.
(I'm an atheist, but like made-up theology to at least be internally-consistent.)
Granted, the distinction is not grasped by many R&F JWs (including many elders!), since you often hear the ol' old chestnut slogan, "If God wanted to force man to serve Him, he would have made men as robots, and not given Adam Free Will...." That grates on me like no other, since it shows they don't even understand their OWN theology, or what 'free will' actually means.
In the official JW doctrinal beliefs, there are TWO types of WILL:
1) God's Will
2) The Will of God's creations (angels, mankind).
God's Will ALWAYS trumps man's will: if God said, "Don't Do X", then by definition, it is a sin to Do X, since the action violates God's will. Any action contrary to God's Will IS automatically deemed a sin.
In other words, everytime God says a new rule (eg "don't mix cotton with linens"), then that decision is made FOR mankind, and it no longer is a decision that God allows man to make for themselves; God does NOT give humans permission to sin! If humans voluntarily choose to sin (i.e. violate Divine Will), then they are said to have had the "freedom of choice" to sin, which implies that God will STILL punish them for their action, making the decision that God forbade.
Compare that to free will: the term means EXACTLY what it says, in that the person has the authorization to choose amongst options that are essentially FREE of consequences (more or less equal). In JW parlance, the ONLY decisions they are authorized to make are "conscience matters", those where God hasn't forbid or commanded a certain act, and they're advised to use their 'Bible-trained consciences' in order to choose whatever action they think will best make YHWH happy, even though God didn't say. So they reflect, pray, act, and HOPE they didn't sin via their ignorance of forgetting about one of YHWH's laws (it's still considered a sin, even if done without understanding it was a sin).
So 'Free Will' is not some magical substance that God inserts into humans, as if it's a part of their brain; instead, it's simply giving mankind PERMISSION to decide a certain issue for themselves. So everytime God says, "Thou Shalt Not Do X", then man's "free will" domain shinks by that very action. It no longer is a conscience matter.
John said:
I don't see such distinction in JWT. In JWT free will = freedom of choice. If you only have the choice between good outputs (God's expressed will) it will not be considered freewill. Field service and bible study are two "divine will" options where you can choose, both good.
No, actually it IS an example where they're authorized to exercise their personal judgment.
In fact, a JW is encouraged to use their "free will" to choose their specific behavior to carry out Divine Will, too (where "Go thereforth and make disciples" is the Divine Will they follow). The specifics are left up to the individual to decide, as a matter of their own conscience. If a JW starts to feel guilty about not putting enough time, they are free to put in more time, since the specifics are left up to each JW.
However, they are NOT allowed to decide to become inactive, since THAT would be considered as violating Divine Will; while they MAY have the "freedom of choice" to sin, but they fully expect to PAY THE CONSEQUENCES as a result (i.e. lose their panda-petting privileges in the New System).
As long as the specifics aren't explicitly stated (ie Jesus DIDN'T say "Go thereforth and make disciples at least 8 hours a week"), then the JW MUST use their "free will" in order to obey overarching Divine Will.
BTW, have you uncovered the 'paradox of Adam and Eve' yet? It's something JWs hide, even altering the New Worlds Translation to cover up the logical problem (the fly in the ointment) in the so-called "perfection" of the Garden of Eden account.
Adamah
John_Mann

(I'm an atheist, but like made-up theology to at least be internally-consistent.)
Me too! I just pretend I'm playing a kind of RPG. And search for logical holes in a system it's always nice.

Granted, the distinction is not grasped by many R&F JWs (including many elders!), since you often hear the ol' old chestnut slogan, "If God wanted to force man to serve Him, he would have made men as robots, and not given Adam Free Will...." That grates on me like no other, since it shows they don't even understand their OWN theology, or what 'free will' actually means.
In the official JW doctrinal beliefs, there are TWO types of WILL:
1) God's Will
2) The Will of God's creations (angels, mankind).
God's Will ALWAYS trumps man's will: if God said, "Don't Do X", then by definition, it is a sin to Do X, since the action violates God's will. Any action contrary to God's Will IS automatically deemed a sin.
In other words, everytime God says a new rule (eg "don't mix cotton with linens"), then that decision is made FOR mankind, and it no longer is a decision that God allows man to make for themselves; God does NOT give humans permission to sin! If humans voluntarily choose to sin (i.e. violate Divine Will), then they are said to have had the "freedom of choice" to sin, which implies that God will STILL punish them for their action, making the decision that God forbade.
Compare that to free will: the term means EXACTLY what it says, in that the person has the authorization to choose amongst options that are essentially FREE of consequences (more or less equal). In JW parlance, the ONLY decisions they are authorized to make are "conscience matters", those where God hasn't forbid or commanded a certain act, and they're advised to use their 'Bible-trained consciences' in order to choose whatever action they think will best make YHWH happy, even though God didn't say. So they reflect, pray, act, and HOPE they didn't sin via their ignorance of forgetting about one of YHWH's laws (it's still considered a sin, even if done without understanding it was a sin).
So 'Free Will' is not some magical substance that God inserts into humans, as if it's a part of their brain; instead, it's simply giving mankind PERMISSION to decide a certain issue for themselves. So everytime God says, "Thou Shalt Not Do X", then man's "free will" domain shinks by that very action. It no longer is a conscience matter.
I agree there's a difference between Jehovah's will and ordinary freewill.
Indeed I have to take Jehovah off from paradox 2, b/c he can't choose violate his laws. Jehovah will be all alone in the end. That's make me wonder the JWT allows an endless cycle of creation and destruction, just like some speculations about an endless cycle of Big-Bang/Big-Crush.
But I can't grasp yet the need of such obscure distinction in my deconstruction.
BTW, do you have some WT article where they explain this "will distinction"?
BTW, have you uncovered the 'paradox of Adam and Eve' yet? It's something JWs hide, even altering the New Worlds Translation to cover up the logical problem (the fly in the ointment) in the so-called "perfection" of the Garden of Eden account.
In the sense they were just like perfect children?
And Jesus itself can't be classified as a human (even a perfect one)?
Adam and Eve can't be classified as adults and Jesus can't be classified as human.
Jesus it's kind of a demigod (considering both his human and spirit form).
*lost*

Great thread this
prologos

All entities and condition in the physical universe exist because they exist because and within the laws of nature.
Any creature that willfully wants to ignore these laws is doomed.
but is the desire to ignore the laws, to be a scoff-law a challenge to the maker of the laws?
would it not rather be a lack of research, understanding?
for example, Acts 1:7 stayes that the creator has put "TIME -- IN HIS JURISDICTION--" &"--it is not givent to you to understand time--"
wt ignored this fact to their regret 1925,1975--.
we all are still baffeled by time.
snare&racket

Totslly agree with Satan in the story, much to the delight of ignorant bethel viewers I am sure. God demanded to be worshiped and he insisted the right to control the life of his creation. Satan said.... "Chill" decide right and wrong for yourself....
Religion will have you believe they had free will in that scenario, serve god or don't and he let their desicion play out!
Of course that didnt happen, he said ok Adam and Eve, go look after yourself, here let me make you imperfect, unable to feed yourself and give you pain, suffering and death..... Now lets see how you do!
The god of the bible made sure Adam and Eve's desicion failed! This means the whole thing proves NOTHING !!!!
The question remains WOULD A PERFECT HUMAN IN A GARDEN OF EDEN.....BE ABLE TO DIRECT HIS OWN STEP WITHOUT GOD?
Its like a parent saying to a child "ok its your choice to leave home if you wish and if you think you can survive without me, lets see if you do!" Then burning down the child's house, and daily stealing all their food, beating them in their sleep and making them ill via poison in their water supply , phoning their work and getting them sacked...
Likewise the parent or the god of the bible cannot call it free will or fair, neither can either the parent or the god say at the end of it ....
"SEEEEE... YOU NEEED ME!"
snare x
snare&racket

P.s. I don't believe in free will x I believe in determinism !
imagine you lived the last 24 hours over again, without any knowledge of it being a re-run, everything exactly as it was the first time...
Would you get up at the same time? Eat the same creal? Wear the same clothes? Have the same day?
...of course you would..... You would make the same desicion for the same reasons...... This means you were ALWAYS going to have rice crispies ! You were always going tower the red tie, you were always going to be seduced by the secretary and not go home that night.....
Each desicion is made based on an influence, maybe the mood you are in, an advert you have seen, the temperature that day, a memory, an emotion, an urge... Notice none of these things are things we can control. A memory we had, an experience we had.... Etc etc etc, this all contributes to choosing for example the red tie. So there is no crossroads, there is just the now and everything in our past that what defines what we choose now...
So again... We will always choose the rice crispies for the same reason we chose them first time... Maybe we saw the advert 5 mins before on the TV?
This is why free will is pushed so hard by religion.......... How can we be punished for actions we were ALWAYS going to take!?
MAN A: bursting in on his best friend and wife having sex, his blood boils, his eyes see red....his heart tears in two amd he is saturated in anger....well he is always going to murder them.... If that day was replayed a million times, it would be the same outcome every time....... No free will, he can't control those physiological responses! He may be a perfectly decent and just guy, what he saw before him went against all the justice he knew and respected!
Lets say MAN B: bursts into his bedroom and upon seeing his friend and wife having sex, sits down, looks a them, shakes his head and walks out laughing. This guy has cheated on his wife a million times and wanted an excuse to leave.
These guys weren't at crossroads, they responded based on who they were based on external influences they can't control...
new hope and happiness

No where does the bible say Adam was created perfect.If Adam was created perfect he couldnt do anything imperfect. So if Adam was created imperfect only then is it possible to make imperfect decisions. ( Thats how i see it, if i belived in the story)

The Bizarre Free Will

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