The Bizarre Free Will

by John_Mann 41 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  John_Mann

  The question remains WOULD A PERFECT HUMAN IN A GARDEN OF EDEN.....BE ABLE TO DIRECT HIS OWN STEP WITHOUT GOD?

  Its like a parent saying to a child "ok its your choice to leave home if you wish and if you think you can survive without me, lets see if you do!" Then burning down the child's house, and daily stealing all their food, beating them in their sleep and making them ill via poison in their water supply , phoning their work and getting them sacked...

  Yeah, we can wonder if Jehovah told them about Satan too. Why they listened to a talking animal? Talking animals was normal in GoE? And the snake told them about they not dying in the same day they ate the fruit, and that's was true! Did Adam known about the Jehovah's relative time (1 day for 1000 years)? It was clear they'll have no access to the tree of life (telomerase?LOL) if they eat from the tree of knowledge (internet?LOL)?

  imagine you lived the last 24 hours over again, without any knowledge of it being a re-run, everything exactly as it was the first time...

  Would you get up at the same time? Eat the same creal? Wear the same clothes? Have the same day?

  “The heaviest burden: “What, if some day or night, a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: ‘This life, as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh… must return to you—all in the same succession and sequence—even this spider and this moonlight between the trees and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned over again and again—and you with it, speck of dust!’ Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him: ‘You are a god, and never have I heard anything more divine!’ If this thought were to gain possession of you, it would change you as you are, or perhaps crush you. The question in each and every thing, “do you want this once more and innumerable times more?” would lie upon your actions as the greatest weight. Or how well disposed would you have to become to yourself and to life to crave nothing more fervently than this ultimate eternal confirmation and seal?” ? Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Bobcat

  Lost:

  Great thread this

  Yes, I'm enjoying the discussion too.

  Adamah:

  BTW, have you uncovered the 'paradox of Adam and Eve' yet? It's something JWs hide, even altering the New Worlds Translation to cover up the logical problem (the fly in the ointment) in the so-called "perfection" of the Garden of Eden account.

  You have my curiosity up also. Could you fill us in? This is new to me, or at least has passed me by. (Not hard to do, by the way)

  Take Care
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  John_Mann

  No where does the bible say Adam was created perfect.

  Interesting, but the WT take Adam as a perfect human.

  If Adam was created perfect he couldnt do anything imperfect. So if Adam was created imperfect only then is it possible to make imperfect decisions. ( Thats how i see it, if i belived in the story)

  Yeah, if you use logical reasoning you can throw your bible away at the first story.

  But I think the Adam and Eve in the GoE it's a deep universal individualistic dream that appeals most of men.

  You are in a garden full of pleasures and no stress, you're forever perfect young, and you have a perfect woman who is a female version of yourself, a female clone, all you have to do is make sex with your perfect female clone and discover an entire effing amazing planet, and you have a supernatural being who knows everything to guide you, something like a conscious strong AI with entire internet as database (think of IBM Watson on Google Glass).

  Even in virtual reality I can't think something better than this! LOL!
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  *lost*

  John - I wonder if maybe you are blinded by the ignorance that WT teaches.

  Having your views based on your own opinion is one thing, putting forth those views as facts, is quite another thing entirely.

  If you haven't already, I suggest you step outside the WT 'box' and begin an earnest search for your queries and questions.

  I disagree with many of your 'formed opinions'. they appear to be without basis, until you use 'scripture' and quote references and sources, well, pretty much, at the end of the day, it is just your 'opinion' and without substance or foundation, opinions are worth nothing, and have no merit.
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  John_Mann

  But I'm thinking inside the WT box by trying to find a way to simulate and accelerate the JW world and see what would happen if all of that was really true.

  And the JW world collapses in itself. And the reason is Gödel's incompleteness theorem (the second one).

  Remember my inbox thinking it's just in OP, the other posts are just additional free thinking outside the JW box.

  I've tried this method with several JW's and their reactions is simply amazing.

  I think this is a powerful method to talk with a JW without discussing external apostasy.

  All the premises are well based JW doctrines, so you can freely discuss all of them, even the conclusion 1.

  If you have an opportunity to use this method with a JW try to write down and list all the premises, so when the JW resist some conclusion you must point what premise are been neglected.

  The most popular objection I'd found it's the "new scrolls".

  But even new scrolls can't erase freewill and the discussion continues...
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  adamah

  I just finished a blog post on the topic of Paradox of Adam and Eve, as well as explain how the New World Translation is the ONLY translation that attempts to cover up the mistake:

  http://awgue.weebly.com/the-paradox-of-adam-and-eve-and-how-the-new-world-translation-fruitlessly-attempts-to-keep-it-hidden.html

  Sorry it's a bit redundant, since it's a cut and paste job which combined prior comments I've made on the topic, and I need to streamline it and bit more, but thought I'd share, by request....

  JOhn said:

  I've tried this method with several JW's and their reactions is simply amazing.

  I think this is a powerful method to talk with a JW without discussing external apostasy.

  All the premises are well based JW doctrines, so you can freely discuss all of them, even the conclusion 1.

  Yup, I agree it's better to 'play in their sandbox', as it were, since you can use their own Bible to show them the illogic and downright mistakes; then the ball is in their court for how to react.

  Adam
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  John_Mann

  I just finished a blog post on the topic of Paradox of Adam and Eve, as well as explain how the New World Translation is the ONLY translation that attempts to cover up the mistake:

  Very good article Adamah, well written! Clearly Eve was craving for the wisdom contained in the fruit. WT changing substantial portions of bible is beyond dishonesty!

  Yup, I agree it's better to 'play in their sandbox', as it were, since you can use their own Bible to show them the illogic and downright mistakes; then the ball is in their court for how to react.

  That's the spirit!
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  Bobcat

  Adamah:

  RE your blog.

  On the translation part of Genesis 3:6 ("desirous for gaining wisdom" vs. "desirable to the eyes"), you made an interesting observation. The NWT follows the LXX, at least in thought. The LXX has kai horaion esti tou katanoesai, "and beautiful to contemplate" (Charles Brenton translation).

  As for why the WT chose this reading over the MT, I haven't found anything on it yet. The NWT Reference Bible mentions the difference in a footnote at Genesis 3:6, but only in passing. No reason is given for the choice of readings. Actually, the original NWT (1950s edition) has an even more cryptic footnote:

  "To look upon." This rendering agrees with the LXX, Vg and Sy[riac]. Some prefer to render the Hebrew verb here, "to impart wisdom (intelligence; prudence)."

  No reason is given for why one would 'prefer NOT to render the Hebrew verb.' This is curious. (Edited to add: The MT version, in effect, has the woman seeing the fruit as having the ability to give her "wisdom," a word conceptually related to "knowledge." So why the NWT would want to take that out is a wonder. It fits in with the story line.)

  I haven't gone thru the whole writeup on your blog yet, but this conclusion stood out:

  But if Eve saw the fruit as "desirous for gaining wisdom", that implies God created the pair as LACKING or WANTING in wisdom, such that Eve was DESIROUS of GAINING wisdom. So the Genesis account is actually suggesting that God created the first pair as FOOLS, since people don't desire a property or trait they already possess!

  You are ascibing to God, not what God has said, but what the serpent suggested to Eve was God's motive. It was the serpent who suggested in 3:5 that "God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad. (Also note that the serpent included Adam by saying "YOUR eating it" and "KNOWING good and bad." The verbs are capitalized in the NWT to indicate plurality. "YOUR eyes" probably indicates Adam also.)

  In Genesis 3:22, Jehovah is quoted as saying, "Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad . . ." But there may be an amount of irony in the saying and/or the use of word-play, as the word for "knowing" is the same one used by the serpent in 3:5. The word has a wide range of meaning, not just information acquisition, but also for experience and relationally (as in, ' the man has attempted to set himself up as a rival to us ["like one of us"], by making himself into someone who determines what good and bad is. . .' ["by knowing good and bad"]).

  In a sense, God (as presented in the account) reacted not all that differently from the way a government would react if some group or entity within its borders suddenly declared their independence. Any aid presently given would be cut off, at the very least. In this case, access to the garden and "the tree of life" was ended.

  At any rate, this is not to argue. You've made some interesting points for discussion and consideration.

  Take Care
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  Captain Obvious

  Whew! Thanks for clearing up that you don't actually believe what you said.

  You might enjoy Free Will by Sam Harris. He makes some really interesting statements about the myth of free will.
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  Robert222

  Don't forget, according to JWs, Satan tempted Eve to eat the apple or fruit, telling her she will NOT die if she ate. Well, she died, as the rest of humanity does. However, the only other time I heard "millions now living will never die" was from the JWs. I was told I would never grow old, never die, never graduate high school, but would be in the New Sytem, along with millions of others. Well, people are dying, and continue to die....I have finished high school many yrs ago, JWs equal Satan. No other religion that I know of tells you from the platform, in numerous talks, that you will never die...I think around the 1990's they had to abandon that teaching.