by frankiespeakin 38 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Yes, indeed. Victims on all sides. What a god-awful horrible cult to manipulate peoples' minds to the height of such insanity, and to even make the heart-breaking issue of choosing between family and mates over the wts. Pure evil.
lauriekendrick.wordpress.com/2008/07/03/the-sad-art-of-gaslighting/ The SAD Art of Gaslighting
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BsD,
{{On a more general scope, I do completely agree with this. There are several instances where deceit can be a helpful mechanism of ambulation. It might be noted that once one gets comfortable with that mechanism it eventally (mostly) leads to an "oh what a tangle web we weave" scenario. That's just a tendency, not some rule. Sporadically used in extreme cases (outside fight/flight/freeze situations) it can be helpful, I totllay understand that.}}
True, if one gets to be a habitual liar that one becomes shall we say: pathological. But I would think it to be more rare than common, as we all use deception probably more often that we admit or realize in real life. Skill and a good motive is required, making chances small of becomming pathologically harmful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudologia_fantastica
Pseudologia fantastica , mythomania , compulsive lying , or pathological lying are four of several terms applied by psychiatrists to the behavior of habitual or compulsive lying . [1] [2] It was first described in the medical literature in 1891 by Anton Delbrueck. [2] Although it is a controversial topic, [2] pathological lying has been defined as "falsification entirely disproportionate to any discernible end in view, may be extensive and very complicated, and may manifest over a period of years or even a lifetime". [1] The individual may be aware they are lying, or may believe they are telling the truth, being unaware that they are relating fantasies.....
Lying is the act of both knowingly and intentionally/willfully making a false statement. [4] Most people do so out of fear. [5] Pathological lying is considered a mental illness, because it takes over rational judgment and progresses into the fantasy world and back. [6]
Excessive lying is a common symptom of several mental illnesses. For instance people who suffer from antisocial personality disorder use lying to benefit from others. Some individuals with borderline personality disorder lie for attention by claiming they’ve been treated poorly (though it is not diagnostic). [7] Pathological lying, on the other hand, can be described as an addiction to lying. It is when an individual consistently lies for no personal gain. The lies are commonly transparent and often seem rather pointless. [8]
There are many consequences of being a pathological liar. Due to lack of trust, most pathological liars' relationships and friendships fail. If the disease continues to progress, lying could become so severe as to cause legal problems, including but not limited to fraud. [9]
Psychotherapy appears to be one of the only methods to treat a person suffering from pathological lying. No research has been performed regarding the use of pharmaceutical medication to treat pathological liars. [9] Some research suggests that certain people may have a “predisposition to lying”. [10]
Pathological lying is a complex phenomenon, differing from other mental illnesses. It has many life-changing consequences for those who must live with the illness. Currently, there is not enough research in the area of pathological lying to guarantee a cure. [9]
Also what a about a "pathological truth tellers" who don't keep their mouth shut, or speaking the truth when it puts people in danger all because he has black and white thinking and feels it is wrong to lie even to an enemy? IMO this puts him at a severe disadvantage in dealing with life's problems and intereactions. Failure to use the evolutionary inherited traits of survival like deception put one in needless peril, limiting one's options in dealing with situations.
http://www.ted.com/conversations/12241/if_someone_you_knew_was_a_path.html
Most of you have probably hear the term "pathological liar", meaning they lie all the time, from dusk til dawn. We all lie though, but too much lies can ruin any relationship. If there was no lies, but pure truth 24/7 360days a year for the rest of that persons' life, how would you react to this person?
Some have argued with me that we need lies to live for example, 'your best friends mother on her death bed asks you where her son is, and you couldn't tell her that her son has just died on an air plane that blew up just before landing, so you lie and tell her that his flight was cancelled and he says he loves you very much and you fill in the blanks with fond memories....now let's change that situation a bit....
Your best friend mother on her death bed asks for her son, but you know he just died on that exploding plane, so you give her the low down and tell her that his flight didn't make it here because his plane blew up, though he really loves you and he told me this before we got off the phone.
Two scenarios, both end the same, she passes away, but the details may be different depending on the individual.
A pathological truth-teller doesn't blurt things out though, like if they see something/someone they hate, they won't go I hate that thing over there and then proceed to tell the thing or person they hate it/them, though if they were asked to give an opinion they would tell the truth...
It is not always morally wrong to lie. An illustration I have given before : the French farmer in WW2 who is hiding two British airmen, when the Gestapo arrive and ask "Do you know where the two airmen who crashed last night are ?", should the brave French farmer tell the truth ? I think not.
But the morality of staying in a cult of lies when you profess to be a lover of truth, is for you as an individual to sort out.
Something that may be helpful is to ask oneself is "What would it take to force me to leave?" , along with perhaps "Do the benefits I may possibly reap from staying, outweigh what I am losing by staying ?" and "Will I really lose as much by leaving as my fearfulness leads me to believe ?".
It is not always morally wrong to lie. An illustration I have given before : the French farmer in WW2 who is hiding two British airmen, when the Gestapo arrive and ask "Do you know where the two airmen who crashed last night are ?", should the brave French farmer tell the truth ? I think not.
But the morality of staying in a cult of lies when you profess to be a lover of truth, is for you as an individual to sort out.
Something that may be helpful is to ask oneself is "What would it take to force me to leave?" , along with perhaps "Do the benefits I may possibly reap from staying, outweigh what I am losing by staying ?" and "Will I really lose as much by leaving as my fearfulness leads me to believe ?".
Edited to add: Sorry about the double post folks, boy have I got a fat finger !
@frankiespeakin I think (and this is very much just a personal opinion) you are bringing up a LOT of different issues to a very simplistic problem (see my earlier comment on 'complicating as needed') . Not a bad things to do... because this can be a complex subject.
Whether use of deception is common or rare has no relevance to me. Who I am as a human being traveling on this earth being at peace with myself and the universe isn't going to be coerced into one direction or the other just because it's common and understandable. At that "eye for and eye" point (this is JUST me personally) life becomes a series of justifications rather than a strong integral structure of who I am as a person.
Your extreme example ("ticking time bomb" situation where the woman is on her deathbed) is actually a good one. (I would have gone with a "does my ass look fat in these pants" scenario, but we will work with the deathbed thing LOL.) Who is this woman, what does she want to hear, and what is her mental capability at the time (I mean, she IS dying... and as a person who has gone through this a few times with loved ones... their mentality can VERY fragile or VERY strong)? Using these answers I (personally) still would not lie to her. But i wouldn't be my normal "ass" either. I would say something simple like "I don't think he is going to make it here... are you okay with that?" or "If something bad has happened to him, please rest assured I will take care of the details" or "I haven't talked with him in several hours. Are you prepared for the fact you might not see him before you go?"
(That last question is a bit insensitive, but you get the point).
"Pathological truth-telling" seems to be presented as synonymous with "tactless". You might be right on that. In many cases (observance here) people who spew out whatever is on their mind (regardless if it is truth or lies) have little if no concern for the environment around them and releasing whatever brain clog of an opinion is nothing more the a verbal method of tossing a drive-thru drink out the car window while driving down he road. It's just phonated litter, and I (opinion) find it arrogantly haughty at best. It distances people from each other.
I think (opinion still) the difference here is a detailed preoccupation with whether the information is "true" or a "lie" and what constitues "truth" and "lie" is being determined without factoring the emotional connectors into the equation. And in some cases... especially when lying to yourself... that can be one of the biggest oversights.
If presentation is at equal weight with content, then equal effort is made to both. For such, the route that is more truthful seems (in general) the path with the least problems on the end (typically). BUT that's not to say many Jews survived the Holocaust because a Gentile flat out lied to the SS on their behalf. The extremity you present does arrise. But trying to save the lives of others from a racist genocide isn't the same as 'I just found out I'm in a cult of lies, what should I do'? That sort of 'ticking time-bomb' scenario rarely exists. But when it does arise, I (personal opinion) think that the true nature of someone's consistant pattern instinctively takes over... even if that consistancy is inconsistancy.
If that makes sense.
BSD: It is my opinion that is probably the most truthful thing you've written on this thread, because yes I am.
Well at least there's ONE THING we agree upon!
Well it is good to see you two guys comming to a consensus on this matter shall we move on?
