Question for those who believe the bible.

by seven006 82 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • seven006
    seven006

    A thread started by Realist which mentioned the flood and the disappearance of the dinosaurs got me thinking. Since I do not own a bible I had to download one from the Internet to check a few things out (my computer is really pissed at me now). It's been many years since I read the bible but I needed to be accurate in my research to ask my question. For those who have read my posts in the past you will be as shocked as I am to see me cutting and pasting bible verses. After this post I hope to regain my seances and try never do it again.

    I have a question about timing, natural events, logic, and a little math. Before I ask the question the following verses need to be read. If any of you bible believers have an answer for me I would appreciate it. Just writing this off as another miracle of god isn't going to cut it so I would like an answer based on evidence and logical reasoning. I have always thought that if the story of Noah's flood could be proven to me as an absolute historic and scientific fact that I would change my entire view of the bible and god.

    Here is the scriptures in question:

    And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged; 8:2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained; 8:3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated. 8:4And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. 8:5And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.
    8:6 And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made: 8:7 And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth. 8:8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; 8:9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark. 8:10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark; 8:11And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth. 8:12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more. 8:13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry. 8:14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.

    Now,...From the time Noah supposedly sent out the dove the first time and the earth was still covered in water and the second time when it brought back an olive leaf one week went by. My questions are, since olive trees grow in warm climates and low lands and need sunlight to grow, how can an olive tree that has been buried under water for almost a year dry out, and produce a leaf on one of its branches in less than one week? That is assuming it only took one day from when the dove was first sent out for the earth to completely dry out. Why didn't an olive tree die after being under water (possibly salt water) for a year? Why did it take 40 days and 40 nights to completely flood the earth and only a couple of days to make all that water disappear from the mountain tops to the basin below where olive trees grow? Why weren't any of the dinosaurs taken on the ark? If you say they were all dead before the flood what killed them? And my last few questions are how did indigenous animals like the kangaroo get from Turkey to Australia and leave absolutely no evidence by the way of bones in the path of that journey? Why are some animals and insects only indigenous to certain places including islands thousands of miles out in the middle of the oceans and how did they all get there from Turkey? And last of all, with what seems to be one of the most important historical events that happened on this earth why hasn't evidence of the ark been proven without a doubt? If they can find dinosaur carcasses with vegetation still in their stomachs that predate the flood why not the ark? There has been roomers about it being found but no earth shattering evidence, why?

    Scientific proof would be appreciated here. I will have a hard time excepting a myth as an explanation of another myth.

    Take care,

    Dave

  • Realist
    Realist

    may i add some questions :)
    1. technical questions: where did the water come from? where did it go? how come the last surviving herbivores were not immediately killed by the last surviving carnivores? how did fish survive in a mixture of salt and fresh water? how did noah provide the required food for species like pandas (who require very specific food)? how did all the plants survive 1 year under water? did water or light have different properties before the flood or why was there no defraction of light before the flood (= rainbow effect)?
    2. an ethical question: why would god choose to kill people (including little children how can hardly be considered evil) in such a cruel way instead of terminating them in an at least painless fashion?
    questions over questions and i am afraid the only answer will be ... Jehovah can do whatever he wants! :)

  • seven006
    seven006

    No takers?

    Come on you guys, this is the first time I have started a thread where I used bible verses. I honestly want logical answers to these questions? I read some bible verses and everything, do you know how hard that was for me?

    If it's all true this shouldn't be hard to explain.

    It's Saturday afternoon and I'm bored.

    Dave

  • Doc_jedd
    Doc_jedd

    Awww come on Dave its simple. All this stuff was written by Moses because Jehoober told him to. And Jehoober don`t lie!.....Jedd

  • Faithful2Jah
    Faithful2Jah

    I think this subject matter has been discussed at great length many times before here. Here, for instance: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=17590&site=3

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    I would like to but I've asked questions like these myself since i was a kid.
    I watched a documentary of sortd once on the Discovery channel and there were some possible explinations offered for many of those questions and "some" of them made perfect sense.

    One thing IMO if the story of noah is true then the idea of a dove bringing back and olive branch if that were literal (It was an olive branch and not just leaf of of some plain ol' tree) Then that would mean that the "Entire" earth was not completely under water. Maybe to them it was but how would they or could they know? And who was marking the days on what calendar?
    ********************************************************************

    2. an ethical question: why would god choose to kill people (including little children how can hardly be considered evil) in such a cruel way instead of terminating them in an at least painless fashion?

    That one is easy. They all died because they were ALL evil. Even the children.
    Remember WHY this all happened in the first place?
    Because some horny angels decided they wanted to tryout this sex stuff and see for them selves what all the hoopla was about and began materalizing as men and went around getting all the wemon pregnant which produced a colony of overbarring perverted bullies corrupting everything and everyone insight.
    The whole point of the ark was to convince as many as possible to stop and get on board with them but they all chose to stay. So they died.
    That part of the story is easy to get.

    We don't know exactly WHAT kind of people they were. They could have been an entire comunity of Jeffery Damers for all we know.
    Or maybe none of it happened at all.

    http://ourworld.cs.com/pwmkwzy/home.html

  • seven006
    seven006

    faithful,

    I just read all 13 pages of the thread from your link. I did not see where any of my specific questions were asked therefore not addressed or answered. All I saw was a lame attempt to localize the flood in a weak effort to try to use logic to explain a myth.

    My questions till stand and will more than likely remain unanswered. I still hold to the thought that the bible is a complete book of myth and folklore and was written by men to control others. It is a perfect tool for religions like the JW's to cut and paste to fit their needs to remain controlling those who do not have enough self reliance to run their own lives.

    Just as the many myths about a man named Jesus walking the earth as god's son are identical to the same myths about Buddha another man who is clamed to be gods son. I again say it is all men controlling others by the use of a dead book of myths.

    My questions about the flood will go much like my questions about hermaphrodites when the subject of homosexuality comes up, side stepped and unanswered. My questions about the flood are very simple, why is it so hard to answer?

    Dave

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    Dave,

    : Why didn't an olive tree die after being under water (possibly salt water) for a year?

    Jehovah provided some SCUBA Gear.

    : Why did it take 40 days and 40 nights to completely flood the earth and only a couple of days to make all that water disappear from the mountain tops to the basin below where olive trees grow?

    A large drain pipe easily explains all of that.

    : Why weren't any of the dinosaurs taken on the ark?

    They were at a "Dinofest" in the Canary Islands and couldn't be notified of the disaster. (Bonus trivia question: What bird was named after the Canary Islands?)

    : If you say they were all dead before the flood what killed them?

    Acute alcohol consumption. (While they were in the Canary Islands.)

    : And my last few questions are how did indigenous animals like the kangaroo get from Turkey to Australia and leave absolutely no evidence by the way of bones in the path of that journey?

    You're looking for the wrong evidence. (Hint: think along the lines of petrified Kangaroo poop.)

    : Why are some animals and insects only indigenous to certain places including islands thousands of miles out in the middle of the oceans and how did they all get there from Turkey?

    They hitch-hiked.

    : And last of all, with what seems to be one of the most important historical events that happened on this earth why hasn't evidence of the ark been proven without a doubt?

    It has, you twit. You simply refuse to accept forged photographs.

    Jehovah and I truly appreciate your serious questions, brother Dave. Which is why my Lord and Master has moved me to give you serious answers. I wish you piece (sic).

    (You shoulda taken me up on that offer of a free WTS CD-ROM. All the answers can be found there. Note, I said "all the answers." I didn't say any of the answers were right.)

    Yehashuafarkelia

  • Faithful2Jah
    Faithful2Jah

    >>>>> My questions about the flood are very simple, why is it so hard to answer?

    Probably because those here who could provide you with answers to your "questions" don't want to waste time doing so for someone who obviously has his made totally made up against the Bible being inspired by God. Since you do, we all know that no answer to youe "questions" is going to make any difference in your beliefs. So why bother answering them?

  • Larsguy
    Larsguy

    First of all, you have set yourself up for a limited answer since you said "miracles just won't cut it". The Bible's flood event is presented as a miracle and by definition that means some "natural" laws will be defied, thus it needs no defense.

    Second you must remember that SCIENTIFIC DATA is limited. It's like it only deals with one half of the brain. For instance, it cannot perceive ART, or BEAUTY, though it can observe ORDER, etc. A chemical analysis of the "Mona Lisa" will not capture what it's really about. So you should look at science as only part of the picture, like a black and white snap shot of a person which only captures precise imagery. But it doesn't show color, movement, sound, smell, personality. None of those things. It's limited to the total REAL world.

    BUT....there still is the black-and-white photo outline which should harmonize with reality so here is what specifically the Bible seems to indicate about the flood:

    When the earth was first being formed apparently there was a huge dense fog covering a watery planet and this dense cloud cover was separated and pushed into a "canopy" to surround the earth, miraculously condensed into water and then frozen into solid ice and set in orbit around the earth. This caused no water to fall, no rain. Thus the earth had to be watered from underground streams and rivers.

    When God decided to use the water canopy to drown everything on the earth except for Noah and the fish, he had to melt the canopy. This apparently took 7 days during which time this dense cloud cover caused 7 days of DARKNESS! So when you think of the flood remember the entire planet was in total darkness for seven days prior to it raining. They had lamplights, of course, but once it started raining and those lights were extinguished there was no light and thus all died in the dark suddenly. So think of the flood as a very dark storm, like which occurs where there is a tornado.

    The waters were extensive and after raining for 40 days and 40 nights ended up covering the highest mountains. In order to get rid of this excessive water, the Bible then indicates it took up to a year using WINDS to dissipate the water. These "winds" included waterspouts that funnelled the excessive water into outer space. For your SCIENTIFIC REPORT, please note that water has been confirmed to exist in our solar system with ice being formed around comets in our solar system. So that's the black-and-white checkpoint for where the water vaper in our solar system may have originally come from. Thus if there were no water in outer space in our solar system the non-believers would be saying: "DUHHHHHHH, where did the water go? There's no water vapor in outer space!!"

    So that is how the REALIST BIBLICALIST deal with the scientific aspects of the flood, those we can determine from scripture.

    SCIENTIFIC NOTES: If the canopy were ICE, then there is no "pressure" issues and no visibility issues. It's just a planet encased in a glass house.

    Of course, getting rid of the water by funneling it back into outer space explains where the water went.

    Bottom line, the less you know about the details of the flood and the less imagination you have, the more impossible it seems. But once you get together enough facts it seems quite believable.

    There are tropical animals and remains in the artic areas and that is enough to confirm the earth's climates were once tropical in all areas. It's possible that the Earth was not tilted on its axis until after the flood to balance out the seasons.

    Still, God had to MIRACULOUSLY intervene with the natural state of things in order to bring about the flood.

    There's your answer!!!

    Have a nice day.

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