Trying to decipher the non cult personality of a born in JW

by nonjwspouse 28 Replies latest members private

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  nonjwspouse

  Although his being completely away from all things WT for almost 30 years dd help him cultivate his true self, he never critically thought about the WT and as a consequense remained mentally "in". This in turn has helped some in my trying to figure out the cult/vs true personality since his renewed interest about 3 years ago. But boy, is is difficult. Though never dunked ( thank goodness) he is now planning to become baptized at some point. He had been on a fast track until I literally put a screeching halt to his completely unaceptable behavior. It remained for another year but slowly faded away for the most part. But it is a matter of time before he goes back unless I am shockingly and happily suprised.

  Now we are almost back to before, when we were married. But now I am fuly aware of he cult hold on his mind.

  oNe CUROUS THING i NOTICED IS HOW EXTREMELY SENSITIVE HE IS ABOUT EVER EVEN THINKING ANYONE IS TELLING HM WHAT TO DO. hE BEHAVES ALMOST LIKE A REBELLIOUS CHILD, PURPOSLY NOT DOING WHATEER IT IS, OR TAKING LONGER, OR DOING IT WRONG PURPOSLY THEN ACTING LIKE HE DON'T KNW WHAT HE DID WRONG. tHIS HAPPENS WITH suggestions' OOPS sorry about the caps lock, Im too lazy today to go back and change it.

  anyway,I noticed ths was so very senstive with other people, but when it comes to the WT he completly switches 180 and it's like it is his complete desie to be told wha to do with regards to faith, and the WT as he doesn't trust himself. He said he wanted to "be better".

  I latched onto this and now have started praising him for is choices, or decisions or ideas. ( Not when false, but genuine, otherwse it would be fruitless)

  He has also started letting go of some of his need to never be told what to do ouide the WT now. PROGRESS! He is even asking for my help with things that he wouldn't allow me into his real self"world" to help with.

  He still reverts back sometimes, but at least now I see the diffence, which is major to me.

  I can see he needed control over his life and he learned to get it by rebelling as a teen in high school. Curiosly he spent 15 years with a Woman who was abusivly controlling ( pretty severe actually) and then kicked him out like a used rag. I met him several years after that. He was on track to good indepedace, which was a quality I fell I love with.I on the other hand am the opposite of controlling, which I am sure he found attractive in me at that point.

  He had a very strong work ethic ( still does for the most part) what I thought were plans for the future. But didn't realize how wowfully inadequate his plans really were until we were already married. I was kind of snowed I guess you could say. He behaved in one way, and I believed in that, but it was more talk than action. He had a very convincing whay of stating thing like he KNEW exactly what he was talking about. Over the years I found out was quite misleading many times as he did NOT know. I think that is JW training isn't it? That type of personality trait is foreign to me so I didn't catch on until it was over and over being proven to me he really DIDN't know. I began to call him on it every time it happened. He agreed he needed to stop saying things like he unequivically knew, when he really didn't. Another big step in his authentic self.

  He is also severely lacking in self esteeem. He will curse himself, even hit himself when he makes mistakes sometimes. I was alarmed when I first heard of this and made sure he talked with a therapist about it. He did this again just days ago when making several big mistakes, and he became super emotional and felt a need to "punish" himself. I reminded him that was completely disrespectful to himself, that he was much better than that, and everyone always makes mistakes. He is no different. I had to talk him down from feeling hatred toward himself. I reminded him he is not capable to respect anyone else unless he respects himself first. Same thing with loving yourself, or accepting yourself. He finally calmed down as I went over the mistakes with him pointing out how they can be delt with and everything is NOT horrible.

  Again I feel it is the belief growing up in a JW household that the child must be "perfect" or he is dissapointing Jehovah that causes this extreme self esteem problem.

  Is there anyone else who as not raised in, or ever been a JW who can recognise negative cult traits of the born in? I know it is excessivly difficult not having been " in the shoes" but I am sure trying.

  I still haven't gotten to his level of feeling about never dying. I'm not sure where his head is on that one. He was a early teen in 75 so there is no way he escaped the massive, scary hype all those formative years. However, he as does his family, all claim there was no hype. That 75 didn't happen except in a few overzealous minds. URGGGGGH

  I am so in over my head, but don't want the alternative of "escaping". So I will work, and see what I can do. I love his authentic self very much. I dispise his cult persona that I got to see for a couple years.
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  Apognophos

  It sounds to me like esteem is a bigger problem for him than needing someone to control him. Low-esteem is what in turn leads to unhealthy submissive behavior like being in an abusive relationship. There's a few different types of Witnesses -- some are overflowing with confidence -- but this is definitely one type found in any congregation. And it's not necessarily a product of his upbringing, but if someone naturally has low self-esteem, it will be amplified greatly (that is, lowered) by the Watchtower teachings.

  The problem for the self-flagellating personality type is that the religion teaches them a single definition for success -- for a brother, that's having a good standing and taking on new responsibilities. Anything else they do in life, e.g. education and career-building, is worthless. For some people, the tasks required of them at the Hall are right up their alley, so they feel great about themselves even when they're just regurgitating WT info in a talk or peddling magazines. However, other peoples' strengths do not align with the religion so well, and for those people, being a JW is great exercise for their latent self-loathing.

  Meanwhile, if they are good at something else, they don't believe it matters because 'it doesn't make Jehovah happy' and they might even feel guilty that they're not putting that energy into "theocratic" things instead. Not only do they end up overlooking what might be amazing talents that they have, but they are less likely to even find them, or to form ambitions in the first place.

  The fact is, most Witness men do not get much approbation outside the Society. When they do find it somewhere else -- "Johnson, we need you to pitch this presentation to the client, you're the best we've got" -- they will feel less dependent on the Society to define their life's worth. But the ambition-curbing nature of the religion almost always prevents them from achieving anything praiseworthy by worldly standards. Thus it's something of a vicious cycle.
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  nonjwspouse

  Apognophos, yes the low self esteem is a huge problem. While in the abusive controlling relationship he bagan rebelling against that in those last few years ( hence her unceremoniously paking all his thing us, leaving them outside and changing the locks. He then began to somewhat flourish with learning to be independant. Once we were married he learned a new language so well he would fool those who spoke it natively. ( his vocabulary wasn't big but hehad the dialect and grammer down pat) It was a HUGE accomplishmetn, and didit within three years. He then studied for a professional board exam. He passed that with high marks. ( He did not go to college) His ability to deal with other people in his business is excellent. He has a gift for that too. So for a while he was progressing and gaining what I thought was better self esteem, but, deep down, it was still eatig at him that if he made any mistakes he was to hate himself for it.

  He hates himself for not being able to concentrate on the studies ( and understanding them) when he was studying the WT. He feels incapable of reading or understanding the Bible so he doesn't even try to really read it. I try to reason with him on those things but you know, reasoning goes no where with the dub persona. He feels he will never be good enough spiritually unless someone in the WT guides him there. He is either one of those mentally "lazy" ones, or he is terrified of finding out it is all a lie. Not sure which.
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  Apognophos

  It's a tricky situation. He might be afraid to find out his religion is full of falsehoods, even though he would probably end up feeling much better about himself if he did because he'd realize that their measuring stick means nothing. But you can't do all the research for him, or else, even if he sees the light and leaves the JWs, he'll have done so on another person's coattails. Know what I mean? He won't respect himself more for having left.

  Even though I'm leaving because I did my own research and saw the light, my research depended heavily on other people's sites like jwfacts.com and it took me well into my adulthood to overcome my fears and become motivated enough to even get that far. I still feel guilty for all the years I was in the org. and didn't study well or read my Bible, even though I know it ended up not mattering, plus I feel guilty that I didn't wake up much sooner. Why was I so passive? I think a lot of it had to do with a lack of personal ambition and having no belief in myself.

  Thus, all I can suggest, based on my personal experience, is that you encourage him in his ambitions. Even if he's not actively working towards something in this world, everyone has some kind of latent ambition that can be nurtured. Frankly, the reason I'm leaving the religion is because I found someone to encourage my own ambition, and I needed to break free of WT control in order to pursue this new opportunity. But it's pure luck that I bumped into someone "worldly" that trusts me and needs my help to succeed. If it weren't for him, I would still be in wallowing in the Irregular JW Doldrums.

  If you can encourage him into a similar situation to mine, where an important need of his is being met by something that conflicts with the Society, you might pull it off. In my case, I've been creatively frustrated my entire life by being a JW, so I finally got to a point where I was willing to research my beliefs, and, gasp!, even read apostate sites. It's actually a selfish motivation for doing so, but to be honest, 99% of all JWs leave for selfish reasons. I don't believe this is so much a bad thing, as much as it's simple human nature.

  Short version: Only another powerful need can overcome his dependence on the Society and his lifestyle inertia.
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  paranoia agent

  Although his being completely away from all things WT for almost 30 years dd help him cultivate his true self, he never critically thought about the WT and as a consequense remained mentally "in".

  This to me says a lot, I know some people who are not attending meetings and doing what normal 'worldly' people do, these people were born in jw's. However when I bring up anything that is against the WT they tend to get angry or change subjects.

  To me the problem is that we, whether we think about it or not, see ourselves as good people, but good means different things to different people, thus so that one might view jw's as friendly people being picket on as well as non jw's, and since these views have been dormant for many years they have not been challenged.

  When I avoided progressing spiritually due to my agoraphobia I felt a strong sense of debt to the congregation (guilt=anxiety) that I became a role model doing anything that I possibly could. This caught many off guard who saw me as spiritually weak yet very judgemental on what to watch and who to associate with. I guess this person is under his own guilt trip, of not living up to expectations on what he perceives to be good.
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  Oubliette

  The desire for autonomy and to be self-directed is strong in normal humans. Cults of course cannot have that and so they systematically dismantle a persons self.

  Recovering from this psychological abuse is very difficult. A person has to be aware of what was done to them and how if they even hope to ever recover.
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  flipper

  NONJWSPOUSE- The WT Society and Jehovah's Witness organization rips apart every last vestige of self esteem a person has. I was a born-in JW ( exited 10 years ago at age 44 ) and it takes time to regain and re-mold your self esteem and get rid of unecessary guilt and fear. And I think that's what your husband has unecessary guilt and fear. Your comment, " He is either one of those mentally " lazy " ones , or he is terrified of finding out that it is all a lie. Not sure which. " My observation is that it's probably both things , not one or the other. Many JW's just cruise through life and let the WT leaders tell them what to think, how to feel, because it's easier than thinking for yourself. And if a JW like your husband finds out that it's all a lie- that would then FORCE him to reconsider eveyrthing he thought was true and disable his mental and emotional safety net. Your husband needs help to assist him to see that HE is O.K. without the WT influence.

  Steve Hassan's books really helped me to lose that JW cult personality and I highly recommend that you and he together- if possible read these books. Titled : " Combatting Cult Mind Control," " Releasing the Bonds - Empowering People to Think for Themselves," and his latest - " Freedom of Mind - Helping Loved Ones Leave Controlling People, Cults and Beliefs. " Even if he doesn't agree to read these books with you- I feel you need to read them yourself in order to get a full picture of what the cult mentality entails. Access to information about this is of the utmost importance in helping your husband to see he doesn't have to torture himself with fear and guilt. Steve Hassan's website is : www.freedomofmind.com. Good luck to you and we are here as a support as well. It may be that your husband needs a professional counselor who specializes in helping people who exited mind control cults. Hang in there, take care, Peace out, mr. Flipper
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  jgnat

  I think you have some great insights. It will all help.
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  nonjwspouse

  thanks to all of you who responded with such helpful insights.

  flipper, a year ago I finally pursuaded him to read combatting mind control. it was a huge battle at first, but finally, after I kept explaining it was for him to understand where I am coming from so he can help me see where I am mistaken, he finally agreeed. Of course, the conversation aboit the boook didn't last long, though he did read it. I have hoped it did plant seeds, which I feel it has. I've read every one of hassans books, as well as Twisted Scriptures which is not mentioned her much, but I reccomend it as a very good book.

  I will continue to try to pull out his non cult persona as much as know how.

  I agree about the safety net, and that part worries me. he is going through so much emotionally right now I am concerned about this safety net. What will catch him if he falls hard? I hope I can.
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  Sonny Crockett

  You need to be really careful about giving or getting personal advice online. Too many factors involved. So use a big grain of salt.