Trying to decipher the non cult personality of a born in JW

by nonjwspouse 28 Replies latest members private

• 

  Apognophos

  Well, you're certainly trying to deal with a lot on your own. Does his health look like it will be recovering soon? Now isn't the right time to confront his beliefs, of course, but maybe you can focus on helping him recover and then start coming back to the subject of his religion. I mean, if you really feel that the situation is intolerable. Personally I'm not sure his shortcomings can be blamed on the religion or his upbringing, though they may have exacerbated the situation.

  Just keep in mind that getting mad at him for going to meetings is literally the worst thing you can do. I don't know if you're still reacting that way, but your thread here from just 12 days ago indicates that you are (or perhaps he just worried that you woudl?). If you do this, it reinforces the JW persecution complex, and needless to say it adds to his stress considerably. It's better to treat his religion lightly as "that thing he has to go do once in a while" and then make him feel welcome when he comes home. I think that will actually help him relax and let out his natural persona.

  Confronting his beliefs may lead to destruction of the relationship, but if you get to the point where you feel there's little happiness for either of you in staying together, then it is a logical last resort. Even if you do so, when the time comes, you should do it as calmly as a Vulcan. Try to out-logic him. Coming at him with strong emotion will just cause him to shut down defensively.
• 

  John_Mann

  Very good thread!

  WT cult personality is set to be very childish, specially in feelings. We were not supposed to grow up! The BIG A was always promised to happen before you reach adulthood.

  The dream of paradise is another mental blockage. In the subconscious, they'll not lose the paradise promise for NOTHING. That's a hard issue we all had (have) to fight when we left WT. It's not something easily dismissed with reason and logic, the everlasting paradise thing is deep buried in every born in subconscious. It's a bad thing when sometimes it comes to the surface, I have no words to describe how depressing when it happens.

  It's very hard to talk about these deep feelings, I think just through art we can touch this. How to express the loss of an eternal-perfect-young-life-in-a-paradise? Even worse, how to digest this idea was never real at all? Who (and why) did it to us? Just for money? What obscure reason would lead someone do such thing to fellow human beings? If people can do this kind of pure evil, can I trust in someone else? Even me?

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSeg69d3CQ8
• 

  adamah

  (Sorry, nonJWspouse, as I didn't put 2 and 2 together with prior discussions until you mentioned his prior health issues...)

  I realized the depth of his inability to know his own feelings or thoughts when we went to a marraige enrichment class and were asked simple quesrtions on your favorite whatever, or where do you want to see yourself five years from now. He was literally frozen. Sat still.

  Well THAT'S not good, since most wouldn't have that much of a hard time answering such questions. Was the marriage counselor aware of that dynamic, i.e. that you had to help him with the answers? His inability to visualize (much less express!) what he wants out of life seriously hampers his ability to be in loving relationship.

  FWIW, many JWs are subconsciouly attracted to the cult since it's "safe": it actually dehumanizes others (including the marriage mate) and takes all the danger and risk of being hurt by others you love, since the top priority is one's love for Jehovah: the target of their "love" only demands following the rules. Hence it places the believer in control, and it's actually a very self-centered dysfunctional form of "love" since the other partner(s) in the relationship is not real, but in their heads. It's self-love (unless they overstep the boundaries, and then the elders step in to remind the person that THEY are in control of God, not the believer).

  So the good/bad news is that you're not competing with 'another women' for his love, but actually worse: you're competing with a God (who's controlled by others, esp elders, who for all intents and purposes, are the ones who can act as God's apointed messengers and control him). It's all a fantasy, and that's somewhat akin to a male who's addicted to porn: it's paradoxically harder to break the addiction when it's pure fantasy.

  It sounds like you need to clearly define what you'd like to tell him, reflect on what you need out of the relationship, and have a heart-to-heart with him as you sound like you're at your wits end. Just remember to set limits for yourself, and to express it to him: then if things go South, you may have to leave but knowing that you gave it your best efforts, but you have to look at for your best interests (as well as your child: that's a HUGE game-changer which is also a ticking time-bomb, since if he goes back in, he's expected to raise your child in "The Truth" and not let the unbelieving mate stand in the way by "spiritually endangering" the child).

  Adam
• 

  nonjwspouse

  Apo,

  Well, you're certainly trying to deal with a lot on your own. Does his health look like it will be recovering soon? Now isn't the right time to confront his beliefs, of course, but maybe you can focus on helping him recover and then start coming back to the subject of his religion. I mean, if you really feel that the situation is intolerable. Personally I'm not sure his shortcomings can be blamed on the religion or his upbringing, though they may have exacerbated the situation.

  Not really, some of the problems are chronic and we are trying to find a balance of medications and lifestyle adjustments to help him. The bad thing is that this past year the health just gor worse. These are not emotioal things, though his meotional state is pretty depressed, they are organic diagnosed, specific diseases/conditions. It's been feeling unreal how many things have happened to him these past years and Drs keep adding more medications, which we try to avoide, but can't many times. My focus all year so far as been on helping him recover, learning about the health problems and trying to find the best solutions to help him lead his daily life as normal as we can. I had not been the one bringing up the JW religion for the last 10 months.He only barely has, but each time it is strained. I focus on non religious parallels to try to plant seeds of doubt. Commenting on news things about polotics other religion etc, but never bring the JW into it. However, the few times JW jas been brought into conversation I am having to really restrain myself rom getting upset. I am not good with hiding my emotions ( a vulcan I can never be :-( Adam ) In the past, I had to actually medicate myself ( with anti anxiety meds) when I knew he is going to a meeting, or a study or convention, and then plan to make myself very busy so I hopefully do not show my anger. Sometimes I could do it I think, but I doubt I hide very well, even while medicated. The thing is, before he got "zealous" three years ago I actually attended the memorial with him and his Mom for his mother to show off her grandchild. I even twice took our child,( though I never went in there) to the last half of one convention day for my husband and his mother. I had no idea what I was really doing at that point. I was so innocent, and deceived.

  I agree that this is not an all one or the other type of thing. It is a combination of things creating this atmosphere of difficulties. Plus, it is exacerbating personality problems he has anyway, to the point of being intolerable.

  AdamL

  Well THAT'S not good, since most wouldn't have that much of a hard time answering such questions. Was the marriage counselor aware of that dynamic, i.e. that you had to help him with the answers? His inability to visualize (much less express!) what he wants out of life seriously hampers his ability to be in loving relationship.

  In fact he was, which is why as I think more about it I am glad my husband might seek out another therapist. The previous one focused fully on our marriage relationship without really paying much more than a passing attention to my husbands difficulties. I think it really made things worse last year. I really hope there is a therapist he will go to who will focus on his needs, his feelings, his wants. He can't be part of a relationship with me, if he has no diea of his own personal feelings. He is also unable to understand boundries. ( I get that is a pretty common JW issue as well)

  I have waited for 10 months for him to initiate a heart to heart with me. I told him that the ball was in his court, that when he was ready to talk with me then he was to initiate it. He made some attempts but never wanted to go deeper than very superficial subjects om whch he dominated the conversation. I didn't press. I knew he was in a fragile state health and emotion wise.

  I was doing mostly ok until he brought up his brothers first talk a few weeks ago, and then a week ago blamed me for his not going to the talk. Now, I am not feeling I can wait much longer for that heart to heart. Although he knows what I expect already, what I want. he knows my fears of problems down the road with his VERY CLOSE TO HIM JW family if he were to get caught in doing double life things ( he told me what he thinks is none of anyones business at the Hall, even if he attends his daughter's BD parties.... I know this is not realistic. He thinks I just read lies to put that nonsense in my head ugh ) He knows I will never become a JW, never agree to our child being taught or raised as a JW. I have definite boundries that I have made very clear from day one. Those boundries were accepted by him....then..but then he attempted to shatter them all at once, and like I said, the relationship has never fully recovered from that. If he had stopped all dealings with the JW at thay point, or tried to learn more reality about the WT, maybe it could have healed. But instead he continued associating even more, and his behavior changed, etc...

  I get the "other woman" comparison. It is very much like that only worse, like you said. And if he becomes baptised I will have to battle the KH opinions of what he should and should not be doing with our family. The pressure to raise our child in the KH will be huge. I will not sit quietly for that at all as he knows full well. It would lead to a very stressful household.

  I know how very fragile this situation is. This is why I am exausted by it. I don't want to lose him and our family together. He means the world to our child. I love him. Overall he is a very thoughtful, giving, romantic, sensitive, hard working, funny guy that is changed like a Jeckel and Hyde thing when he is active in the JW world.

  To be married to a JW or JW wannabe is not for the faint of heart. In the world of therapists I found the depth and seriousness of this is not well understood. Like John said, his dream of paradise (that is directly connected with the WT), is so deep and so difficult to understand, and so powerful that it can override everything and everyone in his life if he lets it.

  Thank you Adam and John and Apog.
• 

  jgnat

  What would happen if you told him if he goes with the JW's all the way, it would end your marriage. As tragic as that would be.

  Would that make him rethink things if he is a black and white sort of guy?
• 

  dog is god

  I'm not sure that when you are born in you will have a non-cult personality for a long, long time. You never had one in the first place.
• 

  adamah

  non-JWspouse,

  Unfortunately there's no magic words that can resolve the issue; it's a pickle, no doubt...

  Your comment about his inability to make even simple decisions for himself (AKA self-dysregulation, e.g. being unable to choose between vanilla and chocolate ice cream) and low self-esteem reminds me of borderline personality disorder (BPD), a condition which cults like the JWs do their damnedest to replicate in their members:

  http://psychcentral.com/lib/how-to-help-a-loved-one-with-borderline-personality-disorder-part-1/0008746

  The interview is a two-part with Shari Manning, Ph.D, a licensed professional counselor who specializes in treating BPD and wrote this book with helpful advice:

  Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder

  It may be helpful to read the advice given on the site, and decide if the book looks worthwhile (check your local library; it's on the shelves in mine). Whichever way the marriage goes, you'll be in each other's lives at least until your child is grown, and obviously knowledge will put you in better position to handle the situation.

  Adam
• 

  nonjwspouse

  Jgnaut, I can't make an ultimatum unless I am fully prepared to follow through. At which this point with a young child, I can't say I for sure would do that. Having a child changes things, and I know my ability to control his possible actions of indoctrination is MUCH greater if we are still together. Plus, I do still love him and he is not yet baptised, so there is still a hope.

  Dog I have wondered about that. it is so difficult to decipher all of this.

  Adam, I will check into that book, thank you.

  On a positive note, yesterday my husband asked if I wantd to talk. (99% of the time I would drop anything and jump on it. This specific time I am frantically doing our tax extention for 2012 and I am in over my head ( it is like a literal booklet of forms and a long story about our accountant that quit her firm..) I am now trying to handle this all by myself for the first time and overwhelmed is putting it lightly. SO this time I am frantic for time to get this figured out enough to file on time, then later file an amended return with it cleaned up by an accountant. I apologized to him over and over for not accepting his offer. I then asked him abut an hour later, I had a request of him. To find all those pepers with questions about himsef that he never filled out, and just to reread them, and think about them. If he knows an answer now, write it, if not, to please just begin thinking about them and not ignore it. He was quite agreeable with that. he said it was a reasonable request and he would do that. So now I am going to lie low for a good while. Let's see where this takes him.
• 

  nonjwspouse

  Update:

  So far, he has made a suspected attempt at reading an old paper from the marriage communications class. I see evidence when the paper is on the floor beside the bed. I have been falling asleep way earlier than he has lately. I don't think it is a full hearted attempt, but it is a start.

  I am still trying in full force to create examples, scenerios, of other topics that can very easily relate to the WT. We had a discussion on perceptions and realities. It went from a friend who owns some quick weight loss clinics ( all crock and my husband and I both know it) How the owner is a friend and we have a hard time understanding how he can take peoples money for such a lie ( melting fat) but that in those peoples minds they fully believe what they are told because there is some mnimal result ( dehydration and firming of skin for a few days) and it is what they WANT to hear.

  That lead into having the belief in an MLM that actually have OK products and promote a positive thing ( Herbalife, healthy eating) but do so by taking so much money and time from the people recruited, and making recuriting new members THE focus of the business as being so very wrong and predatory. ( We know someone who does alright in the herbalife business, but also falls into the belief of the outrgous claims of the products) He has always lived well, always eaten healthy, never drank or smoked in his life. His health is great even with a severe parasite infection in his liver that the Drs said should have killed him by now with two episodes of severe internal bleeding ( two times now and he should be on a transplant list) . The guy gives the credit to herbalife. I reminded my husband of his enitre lifestyle, not just those pills. That the guy convinced himself emotionally that it was credit to the product, and not the way he has always lived his life.

  My husband agreed that he saw this erroneious wa of thinking. He mentioned but there has to be some good to the products, or otherwise no one would buy it. I said "Absolutly!" That is the secret to the insideous MLM! You must have a product that can sell at inflated prices, that has some merit, but the focus on the recruitment above all else. Then those at the bottom are always doing all the work without recieving much if anything at all, and those tiny number at the top benefit.

  Another seed hopefully has been planted. :)

  The conversation was also about his depression on how he can't ever seem to have enough time to do what needs to be done in his businesses. I am focusing again on lists. He usually rejects that but this time was more open. I began with just today and how if he makes his list, and places goals beside the items, and then checks off the items completed, he will have a much more efficent way of handling his days. He will not forget to double task when it is convenient to do so. The entire concept of goals is so difficult for him. He considers that goals will create stress. I argued that they create focus, and as long as he does not set the goals into concrete ( and associate with failure when a deadline passes) and is able to readdress them when needed, but to always have a goal in place that he will then have a better idea of what he is doing, and what he can do. Not reaching a goal at the initial time set is not a failure. It is realistic life. You just redjust and set a new timeframe then focus on it.

  I am imagining that the JW idea of a goal that is not reached on time is immediate faliure, regadless of a reason. I can imagine him finding a goal as being unappealing so he will not have to feel accountable, or feel failure. Not making lists frees him to not have a time frame responsibilty.

  It is causing the opposite of relieving him, it is creating w huge stress as it is highly inefficent use of his time. Yet, he can't quite it see that way. Until today, maybe he wll begin making lists begin setting priorities himself using time sensitive criteria, and then find the freedom that comes with defined goals and focus.