Trying to decipher the non cult personality of a born in JW

by nonjwspouse 28 Replies latest members private

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  adamah

  nonjwspouse said-

  I agree about the safety net, and that part worries me. he is going through so much emotionally right now I am concerned about this safety net. What will catch him if he falls hard? I hope I can.

  You didn't tell him there WAS a faux safety net: the WT did. I don't encourage or protect beliefs in ANY delusions, regardless of how comforting and beneficial they may be, and whether the person admits it or sees it at the time, they don't do any favors to themselves by clinging to their blankie and sucking their thumbs as middle-aged adults.

  Aside from the fact that he's your husband(!), it's more demeaning to approach it as if you have the responsibility "to catch him if he falls hard", since you didn't marry a teen-aged boy, but an adult male. As Paul said, it's time for him to quit thinking like a child.

  Adam
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  nonjwspouse

  Yes Sonny, it is not smart to take advice without first evaluating it to you own personal situation.

  I do, however, know this place is really the only place which CAN give "been there done that" type of advice when it comes to the WT world. Therapists are great and I have one. Unless that therapist has been a JW there is no way they can fully understand the JW mindset. In fact, unlike a family therapist not ever having a child of their own doing intensive research and learning about children, I have yet to find any therapist that fully studies the JW organization. (Though just last week I did speak to one on the phone one that said he had studied about them 20 years ago, but not since then).

  This forum has been invaluable in helping me to understand what I am going through. I unserstand it could be "anyone" giving that advice behind a screen name, not knowing who it is at all. But really, I don't believe so many of the people here are not "for real". I know I am for real. Others here, I believe, are also "for real". I could meet someone in real life only to find out their advice was not "for real".

  Filtering with common sense and checking facts. It is something all people need to do to really learn.

  Thank you again Simon for starting and continuing this forum.
• 

  nonjwspouse

  Adamah,

  Yes, a difficult dllimma is trying to treat him as an adult when his JW persona is childish. This is something difficult to describe, and for him to even be aware of. Most of the time he does act like a man. I am not protecting a delusion. But he does have one, and if it is very deep and he falls out of it, then regardless of being a man or a child it is a very hard fall. I recognise that. What I am doing is slipping past it anytime I can to plant the seeds of doubt in there and hope there is fertile enough ground to grow them.

  It's easy to say "snap out of it", but in reality demanding that causes the opposite effect.

  Have you read Hassans books?

  I am glad that he has his home and non JW friends and he has not been involved in the JW for so many years that he doesn't have any real friends there. This will help a fall if he does fall out of the delusion.
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  adamah

  Yes, a difficult dllimma is trying to treat him as an adult when his JW persona is childish. This is something difficult to describe, and for him to even be aware of. Most of the time he does act like a man. I am not protecting a delusion. But he does have one, and if it is very deep and he falls out of it, then regardless of being a man or a child it is a very hard fall. I recognise that. What I am doing is slipping past it anytime I can to plant the seeds of doubt in there and hope there is fertile enough ground to grow them.

  It's easy to say "snap out of it", but in reality demanding that causes the opposite effect.

  Notice that I never advised you to tell him to "snap out of it": I didn't. Obviously it would be a foolish strategy, since you're dealing with someone who reacts in a childish manner to what he perceives as blatant attempts to control. JWs rarely use that level of control, unless a member is really acting up and needs "reproof".

  My point is that you're strattling a fine line between being an enabler by coddling his behavior vs pointing out to him that his behavior makes YOU to feel compelled to play the role of his Mommy, AKA co-dependence. I'd say that what you've written above fits the classic description of a co-dependent relationship, where he's not so much looking for an adult relationship with an equal, as much to find someone to recreate the role of his parent.

  I'm not saying yours IS such a relationship, and not even saying that it's WRONG or a BAD thing, just that you might need to consider the possibility that he's got a 'type', seeking out women who will take the lead; that's fine, as long as you enjoy playing the role of saving others. IMO, not all co-dependent relationships are bad or to be viewed as somehow inferior to other relationships: many are perfectly healthy, AS LONG as both partners are aware of the dynamic AND don't feel trapped into a role that they're not interested in playing any longer.

  Have you read Hassans books?

  I read CMC a long time ago, and have coached many individuals (including family) out of JWs.

  I am glad that he has his home and non JW friends and he has not been involved in the JW for so many years that he doesn't have any real friends there. This will help a fall if he does fall out of the delusion.

  And those are all positives in his favor, pointing towards a favorable prognosis. But obviously you can only create a climate which prevents back-sliding into the cult, and cannot MAKE him do anything against his will: that would be counterproductive, since it's not building up his INDEPENDENCE from others, but rather continuing his dependence on a cult (namely, of you).

  Good luck!

  Adam
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  Frazzled UBM

  I am a non-JW marri3ed to a baptized born-in and I can relate to what you say. My wife has low self-esteem and is childish in many ways and I often relate to her as a parent to a child - she is incapable of making a decision (waiters are often left standing while she wrestles with the difficult question of what food and drink to order and she looks to me to do even the most elementary administrative task. She is also emotionally immature and is both very vulnerable and incapable of expressing her feelings. It is sometimes difficult to see her non-cult personality. I try to do eveything I can to build up her self-esteem and to encouarge her to make a decision or express an opinion. It is quite sad to see how she has been robbed of her genuine personality - but it does shine though sometimes as she has a great sense of fun when she relaxes and is very affectionate.
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  adamah

  Frazzled UBM comment reminded me of a common dynamic observed in many JWs: 'paralysis of analysis', where they display an inability to decide by focusing on analyzing the problem. Of course, it makes sense to do that as a quasi-cognitive exercise, when they're always TOLD what they need to believe and what the "answer" is, since they're never encouraged to think for themselves.

  Solving problems in real-life isn't as simple as looking in the provided text to find the provided answer that's buried in the sentence, so their problem solving skills are typically deficient; hence the resultant 'paralysis of analysis' (looking for an answer that isn't already provided to them).

  Adam
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  nonjwspouse

  But obviously you can only create a climate which prevents back-sliding into the cult, and cannot MAKE him do anything against his will: that would be counterproductive, since it's not building up his INDEPENDENCE from others, but rather his dependence on the cult (of you)

  Yes that is exactly what I have been hoping I am doing, creating a positive environment for his independance from the JW control. But as we know I can't take away his multiple health problems, or the economic conditions he is under ( I can only do what I can do, not remove the entire problem). Those and other things are what the JW tell him they can and will remove. This is the tricky and difficult part. It is not rational, but it is "the truth" to the JW mind.

  Ugh it is so difficult to even try to explain. I doubt I am enableing him to continue to believe in the org. Since coming to this site I learned I can also not say anything to him to make him "see". I can only do what I am doing and see what happens.

  Interestingly, I am actually the opposite of the "type" of woman he was with for 15 years. Our relationship of 7 or so years changed when he began to go back to the WT, KH studies etc., after almost three decades of being out of the KH completely. It did not change for the better. Since that time we have had many very difficult struggles. Because of the change I needed to learn how to handle that. My outlook waffles between loving the man I married, or being disgusted at the "new" JW persona when he "puts it on".. I have been almost forced into a more controlling ( of him) role that I do not feel comfortable with. It manifestied with my taking the lead with his health problems, researching and making the appointments, disagreeing with the drs and making more appointments. I realized he needs someone to make him prioritize and do things. Unfortunatly for him that is not who I am. So in many areas of his life I see him needing forceful direction, but I don't and seems like I can't provide it. His life is his job to manage, but in a marriage, we both are affected by his choices. maybe he is loking for a parent. If that is the case, then we are doomed. How was that not the case for so many years of our marriage before?

  Up to the time he tried to forcibally, suddenly convert me close to three years ago, I had no desire to change his choices, even if I didn't like some of them. I made my own and dealt with it. This one was different, a game changer. He immediatly back tracked, but from that point on I have struggled with how to approach him, his decisions, his choices, his behaviors. The JW factor has a unique influence in how to deal with these problems. I can even point to the exact minute I first saw his JW persona, while talking sitting in the office discussing something JW related a few years ago, the glaze over his eyes, it scared me and that was before I knew the depth and seriouslness of it. If we had been dating, I would probably have walked away at that point. Not now. Which is why the balance of dependance/co-dependance/independance is so very difficult.

  His involvement with the JW seemed to correlate with my increasing dependance on him fueled by the illness of my father. For years he seemed to desire my dependance on him. Then it's like he decided he didn't like it anymore,( maybe it was just too much) but I am not included in his feelings or decisions. The more I needed him, the more involved he became with the JW.

  Each day as my own health returns I am getting stronger and growing more independant of him. He goes back and forth between liking, to disliking it. It's hard not to be affected by that.
• 

  nonjwspouse

  Adam and Frazzled,

  I realized the depth of his inability to know his own feelings or thoughts when we went to a marraige enrichment class and were asked simple quesrtions on your favorite whatever, or where do you want to see yourself five years from now. He was literally frozen. Sat still. His frantic note taking ( yes I see now where that came from) stopped. He could not answer a single question that required him to express himself. Not just one time, we went to three classes and it never improved. At first we joked as he asked me what to put down as an answer and I gave him one. Then I stopped giving them and took it more seriously. I began asking him to fill out those papers for himself. Eventually he began to feel like a failure when he couldn't so I encouraged him to take it one step at a time, since he has never done this before. It was ok that he couldn't as long as he was recognising this was a problem to be worked on, and work on it.

  He could see it was a problem, but like his thoughts on the WT for so long, he put it on the "shelf" of inactivity. Only to be faced with it again but in a nagative environement. Our relationship has been on a fence. I am weary of this and so is he.

  I hate it
• 

  Apognophos

  You say you feel "forced into a more controlling relationship", but in what way? Organizing doctor appointments? Because I have to tell you, it's a critical flaw in the male personality that men do not like going to doctors unless a body part is on the verge of falling off and duct tape isn't doing the job. Nearly all men need constant prompting and assistance with seeing doctors, because left to our own devices we would pretty much rather die than see a doctor. It's probably something deeply rooted through evolution that has to do with not wanting to show weakness, but let's not get into evo-psych. My point is that this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with his JW personality.

  If you mean by that statement that you are trying to get him out of his religion, then I think you've seen that it isn't that simple. Let's look at it from the flip side: why not try to accept that he might need the comfort of the religion in his life? Yes, the religion is cult-like and it takes some of his time away from you and your relationship. Maybe it meets a need he has, which no single person can make up for. Yes, he's not very independent and self-motivated. Was he different before? You said that he used to claim he had goals, but he would rarely follow through on his talk; that was before he went back to the Witnesses, wasn't it?

  It just sounds to me like you want the relationship to get back to exactly where it was in the beginning, and I'm not sure that's possible. Don't all relationships change with time? And sadly, the JW upbringing was like a ticking time bomb in his head that had to be dealt with sooner or later, though you couldn't have known that when you first met him. All I can suggest is to find ways to bring out his authentic personality, as jgnat often talks about, and to encourage him to succeed in what interests him, so that maybe he will feel less of a need for the religion. It's not as if all JWs are equally committed to their beliefs; some are hardcore, but some are sideliners. So the more you can draw him away from attending all meetings, doing field service, etc., the more of him you get back; it's not all-or-nothing.
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  nonjwspouse

  It's not only the Dr appointments, but that is what opened my eyes to other areas of his life where he needs guidance. I do know that about guys, it is a common trait ;)

  It caused me to wakeup and recognise I guess. One example, he hides from all the financial areas of our life. I do absolutly all the bills, etc etc. I try to include him but its like pulling teeth so I fall into the trap of letting it go, or I had in years past. Now I am not to easy to allow him to ignore it. But still, with things like that being so exausting I do "burn out" and let something very important as that slide. I must take the lead in providing him with the time, and the information. He does not ask, or even want to know unless it is good news. We are running several businesses together! They will fail unless we are together on this. His decisions MUST be informed ones. Otherwise I need to make them. He was highly resistant anytime I made suggestions of changes in the business. He would even get offended and upset. Now he is slightly better but still resists much of the time.

  He hides from anything that will either cause a conflict, or cause him to have to make a decision. I have to push to get him to act. I am not a born pusher, so I am not good at it. I am trying because it is important.

  Yes, his latent JW timebomb was exactly that, a bomb I was unaware of that exploded much of our relationship. Trying to rebuild it has been extremely difficult while he was still going to meetings. That has stopped for the time being which helps a lot. But I am not so niave to think that means all is dandy. This time I am aware, I know it is still there, a dormant time bomb.

  So yes, I do try to attach to his non JW personality and build him up there, but it is hard sometimes to figure out what is real. He is an extremely hard worker, but unable to prioritize. In the last year he is either working hard, or literally sleeping the day away. No in between. ( see part of the difficulty is that it is all mixed in with health problems that CAUSE him to sleep too much, but never this much). Is it the illness, or is it depression, or is it anxiety ( which one recent DR said was the cause) WHO KNOWS??? I am about to burn out completely. Living in "limbo" is exausting. I don't want to burn out so sometimes I try to ignore the JW issues hiding latent, but then I get a panicky feeling inside that some day I will see he has returned and I will not have the opportunity like I have now of seeing more of the non JW persona. I must learn his non jw persona well so I will recognise it when he eventualy goes back.

  I have no control, yet his decisions will control our relationship, our family life. I know if he comes home from some meeting with elders on the future if he goes back, and tells me we have to take our child out of the Cathoic School I will go ballistic. No way will I allow him to retract his promise to me when I was pregnant to not confuse a child growing up. To allow the child to go to Catholic school. He was not just good with it, but happy about it and attended her baptism in the Catholic Church.

  See this stuff is such a game changer for me. I don't do well with huge promises being retracted, and allowing a mind control cult into my personal relationship with my husband. He is a black and white kind of guy, as I now see more clearly. When he decides to do something he goes all out for it, which was fine when learning a new language, ( he learned lots of thing and skills like this) So I know what is coming with the JW if he decides to go ahead with it. I don't know if I can live with that. That is what frightens me. I know too much about the very clear potentials of the JW mindset coming between us.