by Watchtower-Free 223 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
The prevelance of all-or-nothing thinking around here recently is disappointing.
bytheirworks - that was utter drivel.
Proof belongs to mathematicians, everything else is about the quality of the evidence.
The evidence that GW existed is extremely compelling. The evidence against GW existing is non-existant.
The evidence that Jesus of history existed is far weaker.
Nobody has asserted that they can prove Jesus didn't exist have they?
bytheirworks said-
Adama has been debunked by his own words.
Says someone who apparently doesn't even understand the basic definitions of terms used in the Bible (like "faith"):
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/260964/1/Question-regarding-Faith-adamah#.UlhrGySE75J
As you have never perceived George Washington, you DONT KNOW if he lived or not. Knowing requires Perception, which requires acquiring information through use of the 5 senses. You did not see, touch, taste, hear or smell GW, so therefore, you NEVER PERCEIVED him. Instead, you have accepted ON FAITH that the information presented to you about GW's existence is "the truth."
SEE the evidence for yourself:
http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/project/exhibit/hand/1.html
There's literally MOUNTAINS of documents available (no doubt kept under glass, in an air-free environment for archival purposes, so you likely cannot touch it, as you'll get your grimy oily fingers on it).
I know, I know: here's where you start in with the elaborate "international conspiracy hypothesis" bit that it was planned by evil Iliterrati geniuses, where EVERYONE was in on the stunt to plant "false flags" by running international news stories about GW being a general in the army, his Presidency, his marriage, and then his death which was reported by multiple independent sources in papers literally all around the World, etc. Mountains of faux evidence created to support the claim. But odd that there's NO such evidence for Jesus? Nothing written by Jesus, we don't even have a physical description of his appearance?
And if we were able to time-travel and "touch" GW (as you demand), you'd likely only say that it was an imposter, and how did we KNOW that it was the "real" GW? It never ends with paranoid types....
The WTBTS is like a magnet for such types, as it offers PERFECT SHELTER for these people to remain in their mental 'bomb shelters' and feel safe and sound protected from the dangers that lurk outside, quivering in their cubby holes being afraid of the great unknowns: it's why religion works, offering a claim of ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY which is in fact only allusory, as it just doesn't exist in real life.
There's NEVER absolute certainty, and that's exactly WHY the scientific method is superior: it is allowed room to grow, to expand, or even take a u-turn (if there's evidence to support). Not that it matters: some simply prefer to make weak excuses for inactivity.
Adam
cofty - go read a paper. no seriously go read a paper.
Adama - you have debunked yourself again.
Here you go again accepting ON FAITH the information that was presented to you by a "governing body" of historians.
There's literally MOUNTAINS of documents available
Oh, you have documents. I see. GW documents gooooooood. JC documents baaaadddddd. Now I understand you.
I know, I know: here's where you start in with the elaborate "international conspiracy hypothesis" bit that it was planned by evil Iliterrati geniuses
But isn't that what you are suggesting about Jesus Christ... that the whole thing is an elaborate conspiracy?
I see. JC conspiracies gooooooooood. GW conspiracies baaaaddddd.
"Remove the rafter from your own eye first."
designs - How do you know that those teeth are GW's... without personally perceiving it? You don't know. Instead, like millions of "other sheep" you have accepted ON FAITH the information that was presented to you.
We need an "ignore" button.
Yeah, but the REASON the Jews were bigoted misogynists who hated others wasn't for shiggles, or suddenly invented by them: they were trying to please Jehovah, since the Torah demanded that eg Jews not mix/marry Gentiles, ordered them to engage in genocidal campaigns to kill Gentiles (note the same prefix: it's not a coincidence), and to treat women and children as their mere property, etc. Their hate is DRIVEN by trying to please God.
On foreigners:
Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt. - Exodus 22:21
Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits. Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.
“Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds those who see and twists the words of the innocent.
Do not oppress a foreigner; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because you were foreigners in Egypt. - Exodus 23:6-9
On treatment of women:
The daughters of Zelophehad son of Hepher, the son of Gilead, the son of Makir, the son of Manasseh, belonged to the clans of Manasseh son of Joseph. The names of the daughters were Mahlah, Noah, Hoglah, Milkah and Tirzah. They came forward 2 and stood before Moses, Eleazar the priest, the leaders and the whole assembly at the entrance to the tent of meeting and said, 3 “Our father died in the wilderness. He was not among Korah’s followers, who banded together against the Lord , but he died for his own sin and left no sons. 4 Why should our father’s name disappear from his clan because he had no son? Give us property among our father’s relatives.”
5 So Moses brought their case before the Lord , 6 and the Lord said to him, 7 “What Zelophehad’s daughters are saying is right. You must certainly give them property as an inheritance among their father’s relatives and give their father’s inheritance to them.
8 “Say to the Israelites, ‘If a man dies and leaves no son, give his inheritance to his daughter. 9 If he has no daughter, give his inheritance to his brothers. 10 If he has no brothers, give his inheritance to his father’s brothers. 11 If his father had no brothers, give his inheritance to the nearest relative in his clan, that he may possess it. This is to have the force of law for the Israelites, as the Lord commanded Moses.’” - Numbers 27:11
Please note these commandments were WAY ahead of their time if you compare them with other nations living in that area. Wars and violence were the norm then (well, not much have changed, it still is now).
Now, I can't counter the passages where God commands genocide, even specifically mentioning women and children. It is there. For people who want to believe that there is no God, here is the proof. But for me, it is contradictory. And it is not beyond the realm of impossibility that the one of those generations of scribes and copiers of the holy scripture have altered it, maybe not deliberately, but according to their own interpretation, unknowingly producing passages that isn't "from God".
In any case, we should look for Jesus Christ if we want to know who the Father is. Christ is the only reliable source sent so we can know Yahweh. The Bible is not the word of God. Christ is. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
This link might help on the topic of God and genocide for those who still have not lost their faith:
Kassad said-
On foreigners:
Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt. - Exodus 22:21
I wasn't talking about treatment of foreigners: I specifically mentioned prohibitiions against marrying foreigners (and 'mixing', i.e. reproducing offspring):
Adamah said-
Yeah, but the REASON the Jews were bigoted misogynists who hated others wasn't for shiggles, or suddenly invented by them: they were trying to please Jehovah, since the Torah demanded that eg Jews not mix/marry Gentiles
The restriction against marrying outside one's race starts in Genesis 24:
24 Abraham was now very old, and the Lord had blessed him in every way. 2 He said to the senior servant in his household, the one in charge of all that he had, “Put your hand under my thigh. 3 I want you to swear by the Lord , the God of heaven and the God of earth, that you will not get a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I am living, 4 but will go to my country and my own relatives and get a wife for my son Isaac.”
The theme reappears in the account of Dinah and the Shechemites in Genesis 34, where the problem wasn't that she was RAPED by the foreigners (who wanted to marry her), but that her brothers disapproved of marriage to a foreigner, which entailed forming an alliance between families.
The policy against marriage to non-Jews formally appears in Deuteronomy 7:
1 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— 2 and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your children away from following me to serve other gods, and the Lord ’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you.
That's a two-fer: God commands genocide AND prohibits intermarrying with the locals.
God even demands his people break up families on account of having started families with foreigners:
Ezra 10:
10 And Ezra the priest stood up, and said unto them, Ye have trespassed, and have married foreign women, to increase the guilt of Israel.
11 Now therefore make confession unto Jehovah, the God of your fathers, and do his pleasure; and separate yourselves from the peoples of the land, and from the foreign women.
Point being, God CLEARLY commanded his people to stay away from foreigners, so they were only following orders. It's why most orthodox Jews are STILL reluctant to even TALK to shiksa (Gentile) women, since it might lead to temptation to sin and marriage. Jesus was breaking tradition by daring to talk to a shiksa, but he was playing with temptation by doing so.
Adam
bytheirworks wrote Saying Jesus didn't exist is like saying George Washington didn't exist.
You can't prove a negative... so you can't prove someone didn't exist.
All you can do is carefully examine the evidence presented that the person did exist.
but saying Jesus didn't exist is like saying George Washington didn't exist.
In which I replied: And you can't say that he did either, what I can say is that due to the lack of evidence I have no reason to believe that christ ever existed.
bytheirworks then pm’d me:
And you can't say that he did either, what I can say is that due to the lack of evidence I have no reason to believe that christ ever existed."
1st of all, I have the choice to say whatever I want. Whether you believe me or not, is your choice.
2nd, my previous argument stays undebunked.
You can't prove a negative, so you can NEVER PROVE that someone didn't exist.
You can only ACCEPT or NOT ACCEPT information presented that someone DID live.
So the question is then: "What information are NOT ACCEPTING?
I am curious as to why you pm’d me, you dislike discussions in the open?
As for this post allow me to comment from top to bottom, I never implied that you are not allowed to speak your mind and I don’t think you understand that under your own terms on “prove a negative” is the non existing of jesus/Jehovah/deities, take your pick, because you are presupposing that Jesus existed.
The rules of logic that you are applying are misconstrued, there cannot be evidence for absence therefore there can not be evidence for Christ because there is an absence of evidence. And also, rather than disproving Christ we can disprove the bible, we can disprove that there are any historical evidence for Christ who raised the dead and cured the blind.
So your argument does not need to be debunked because it’s flawed, I rest my case on the null hypothesis, that I don’t know therefore I have no reason to believe.
Have a great day.
maybe the Jesus (on the stake) was a pawn, and another Jesus stashed away. Why else would MM not recognize him when he appeared after is death?
I do hope you all continue with intelligent debate and not usless fighting. This is really interesting, even though it most likely is a hoax.
What I'd really like to know is what the other secrets the RCC is keeping to themselves....?
I cannot speak for bytheirworks... but sometimes people take things to pm, because it might seem more sincere and/or personal. Without others watching. Not to hide... but so that discussion might happen without any possible pretenses.
Peace,
tammy
Paranoia agent is very confused & deluded.
I don’t know therefore I have no reason to believe.
That is the craziest thing you have said yet. Not knowing... is to immediately have a reason to believe.
People believe when they DO NOT know. They have no choice.
They will either believe for something or believe against something... but by definition, you can only believe when you don't know.
In fact, it is only when one doesn't know, that's when you ABSOLUTELY HAVE a reason to believe.
-to TEC: Appreciate it
