Birds peeking in your window
Ancient Confession Found: 'We Invented Jesus Christ'
by Watchtower-Free 223 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Invetigator74
btt
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adamah
BTW, here are Richard Carrier's thoughts on Atwill's thesis:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/4664
kassad84 said-
Yes, but aside from applying judgement and reasoning capabilities and trusting on your own abilities, i also have these personal experiences of God, unexplainable, maybe even ridiculous if told (which I am doing right now). Prayers quickly answered in a day, signs of forgiveness shown on early mornings when nobody else is around, birds landing and seemingly peeking on your office window on the top floor many times for a period of days, reminding you everytime of the Sermon in the mount, things like these, simple, ridiculous, coincidental to most, but for me are signs of the Divine.
It's a well-known property of human thinking that we're prone to see patterns in whatever we're perceiving, in order to make sense of our existence: it's even got a name, called, "post-hoc rationalization". Human brains need to know WHY things happen, and our imaginations will provide itself with an answer if we don't find one to give it.
Eg, when I was studying microbiology, I suddenly started to notice similarities between the speckled pattern on the linoleum floor that suddenly looked like "Gram stain" patterns (a method of figuring out what colonies of bacteria you're looking at, by applying different dyes to them and looking at them under a microscope). Note that nothing actually changed in the tiles that semester, only in my brain: I started to see different patterns in the semi-random tile pattern that always existed that way, only that I started to try to explain it via seeing it as a Gram stain.
Same phenomena happens with those looking for miracles: when you accept that a miracle is possible, even the most-random and routine event will suddenly seem to be a "sign".
There's other phenomena which isn't well-known amongst lay people (eg sleep paralysis, night terrors, auditory/visual hallucinations, etc) which likely support people's beliefs in demons and supernatural forces. Whether they realize the underlying causes or not, it doesn't mean it's proof of supernatural: the brain is capable of playing tricks on us, and in fact has played a well-documented role in the past.
kassad84 said-
As one man once said, "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Many believers are prone to the fallacy of dualistic binary thinking, AKA the law of the excluded middle. Not every phenomena in life exists as an "on" or "off" state, black OR white condition, since much of reality exists along a broad continuum with shades of gray.
As a skeptic, I don't deny the possibility of miracles (defined as temporary exceptions to the normal rules of law), since sometimes the ordinary rules of nature DON'T apply when you find yourself in exceptional conditions, eg the rules of gravity which apply to our Planet break down in the vicinity of black holes. But I don't accept the idea of miracles as happening as the result of a God, since there's no proof of ANY EVIDENCE (where a documented miracle would be evidence) to support a belief in God(s).
Farkel said-
: I shall keep an eye on this story, I don't think I'll waste my time going to the event though.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Are you not aware of the idiocy of that statement?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
How can you "keep an eye" on something you won't even "keep an eye" on?
Uh, Farkel: what makes you think someone would need to attend Atwill's presentation in order to "keep an eye" on the discussion here?
Explain (that is, if you can contain your mockery long enough to realize the egg is on YOUR face).
Adam
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kassad84
Adam, its been great talking to you, thanks
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paranoia agent
Tec: Moses passed 17 commandments in which 10 are only used and most Christians use a different version of those ten commandments, some are not even followed.
The earliest Christians, the ebionites and the marcionities had completely different views of the bible that we have today; Jesus version of Christianity is not the one preached today, scripture is interpreted from an incoherent collection of books thus is why there are 41,000 different dominations of Christianity.
The book contradicts itself, its written in sophisticated Greek which was not their language, written and translated by authors that we do not know by and transmitted to illiterate people (which was the norm at that time) passed on to other illiterate people.
If you know your ancient global history you would know that Christianity was used by nations to control people for their benefit
The Jews were following those texts... but failed to see that they witness to Christ... something they would know if they were listening to God and to the same Spirit that the prophets who witnessed to Him listened to, rather than relying upon their own interpretation and reason and tradition.
Of course they did because if you ask any breathing Jew today they will show you from the sources that JESUS WAS A FALSE PROPHET, you just use your own version of Christianity without acknowledging what those of the Jewish faith have to say on the matter. Further this substantiates the claim that Roman authorities were tring to control people of the Jewish faith because if you understood the reasons why Pilate condemned Jesus you would know that Jesus is a lunatic for doing what he did during the Jewish traditions.
Have a great and god bless.
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kassad84
Of course they did because if you ask any breathing Jew today they will show you from the sources that JESUS WAS A FALSE PROPHET, you just use your own version of Christianity without acknowledging what those of the Jewish faith have to say on the matter. Further this substantiates the claim that Roman authorities were tring to control people of the Jewish faith because if you understood the reasons why Pilate condemned Jesus you would know that Jesus is a lunatic for doing what he did during the Jewish traditions.
Sometimes it's all about saving face, and paying respects to the Elders
"Later rabbis had to defend the (originally non-unanimous) vote of the first century Sanhedrin which tried and convicted Jesus of apostasy, heresy and fraud. Why? It was inconceivable that the Elders of Israel would make such a colossal mistake as repudiating God's Mashiach and turning him over to Goyim to be executed.
Without questioning, without opening the documents of the case, later rabbis accepted what their teachers—and their teachers and their teachers—believed to be a right legal decision regarding the young rabbi from Nazareth. They repeated and thus validated the original ruling as the authoritative Jewish position for all time."
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transhuman68
It's all BS- nothing will ever be proven, and it doesn't even matter now anyway.
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tec
The earliest Christians, the ebionites and the marcionities had completely different views of the bible that we have today; Jesus version of Christianity is not the one preached today, scripture is interpreted from an incoherent collection of books thus is why there are 41,000 different dominations of Christianity.
Well, like you said, if there are that many different denominations, lol... it is not a stretch that those two others had different views ; )
But in truth, the reason there are so many different denominations - really divisions - of Christianity is because the religion of christianity does not come from Christ. Sure, there will be some truth in them all or at least in most, because they do have at least one similar source that also contains truth... that being the bible. As well as what has been passed down, as well if they are following love, then they will have some truth in them. But Christ is not divided. Christianity... IS... divided. It is how one can know that He did not establish it.
(lThe book contradicts itself, its written in sophisticated Greek which was not their language, written and translated by authors that we do not know by and transmitted to illiterate people (which was the norm at that time) passed on to other illiterate people.
Various books and letters were written after the fact, and some by scribes, so I do not see how it would matter if the person dictating was fluent in any language used or not... or just the scribe and/or subsequent translators/scribes/copyists, etc.
If you know your ancient global history you would know that Christianity was used by nations to control people for their benefit.
I hear what you are saying. I am not speaking of Christianity though.
People do take what should be good (like the good news)... and abuse it so that they can use it for their own benefit. That does not cancel the good news, though.
The Jews were following those texts... but failed to see that they witness to Christ... something they would know if they were listening to God and to the same Spirit that the prophets who witnessed to Him listened to, rather than relying upon their own interpretation and reason and tradition.
Of course they did because if you ask any breathing Jew today they will show you from the sources that JESUS WAS A FALSE PROPHET, you just use your own version of Christianity without acknowledging what those of the Jewish faith have to say on the matter. Further this substantiates the claim that Roman authorities were tring to control people of the Jewish faith because if you understood the reasons why Pilate condemned Jesus you would know that Jesus is a lunatic for doing what he did during the Jewish traditions.
In addition to what Kassad has written, a couple other points to consider are a) there are Messainic Jews (they simply may not considered to be "true" Jews), b) Judaism is not "one" itself, but has various sects of its own, and c) the apostles and disciples WERE Jews, and they recognized Christ. So there was not agreement even then.
Christ also did not come just for the Jews... but for all Israel, of which the Jews are only two portions (Judah and Benjamen). There are ten other tribes, making up the ten tribe kingdom, spread out throughout the world, of which the Samaritans were part.
Have a great and god bless.
You as well, paranoia agent, and thank you!
Peace to you,
tammy
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paranoia agent
tec: You are such a friendly person I feel bad posting, the golden rule, but if you think about it, the golden rule can be very immoral, I could go to your house and kill your family but you won't do a thing, because of the golden rule, Now that is immoral.
You are presupposing that Christianity came from Christ, what are you basing that on? If you say the bible then your argument is illogical, if you say god spoke to you then you don't really know if it was god, it could be Satan pretending like he did with Eve/Adam, or you are delusional, hey you wouldn't be a first, there are people making all sorts of claims from Allah to Buddha and aliens.
What about the Ten Commandments tec? You pick and choose what to discuss? Well in psychology that is called confirmation bias.
It does matter that the letters were written in Greek, because we do not have the originals, being so what we have could be forged, edited or completely made up. The level of education matters as well as the vocal tradition has a natural tendency to alter a story when its passed from person to person, its Chinese whispers at a greater scale. The contradictions matter as well because it shows that the presupposed authors of the letters being passed from church to church, all had a different understandings of Jesus and his message, for example before Jesus closes his eyes at the cross did a concerned and depressed Jesus say "Father, Father, why have you forsaken me?" and then died or did a positive Jesus say "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." and then died ? This isn't even scratching the surface of incoherence’s and yet somehow I have to make sense of all this, spend an a lifetime to find the right Christian domination, or listen to you? which you are neither a prophet or an apostle (which ironically the bible warns of)?
Neither you or Kassan are correct in saying that, the fact is that you completely disregard what I wrote, seek Jewish sources of information, not seek Christian sources of Jewish information, I will not entertain this notion anymore, the fact you do not understand the Hebrew translation of the word messiah (yes, the Christian version you do, which not one Hebrew speaking person will agree with you), and that the old testament does not even speak of Jesus, yet Christians borrow a page from the Jehovah’s Whitenesses speaking where the bible is silent.
God bless.
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tec
tec: You are such a friendly person I feel bad posting,
Thank you, PA, but disagreement and discussion does not have to be unfriendly. I am not hurt when someone disagrees at all.
the golden rule, but if you think about it, the golden rule can be very immoral, I could go to your house and kill your family but you won't do a thing, because of the golden rule, Now that is immoral.
The golden rule can be abused. Same as any rule, or law, or gift. That does not mean that the rule itself is immoral. I am not sure how you are applying it here.
You are presupposing that Christianity came from Christ, what are you basing that on?
I think I said the opposite... the "religion" did not come from Him.
The faith, yes, because it is faith in Him, based upon Him (and in his Father).
If you say the bible then your argument is illogical,
The various accounts in the bible witness to Him... but not just them alone. The Spirit witnesses to whatever is true as well. There are also many people who are witnesses, not to Christ in the flesh from a couple thousand years ago, perhaps... but to Christ who is the Spirit now, yes.
if you say god spoke to you then you don't really know if it was god, it could be Satan pretending like he did with Eve/Adam,
Satan never pretended to be God.
God does speak and has spoken in the past (and today also on rarer occasions)... but now He mainly speaks through his Son, Jaheshua, the Holy Spirit and Holy One of Jah, the Messiah (Christ).
I know His voice. But if I ever heard something that was against Christ and love, then I would know that it would not be truth and so it would not be Christ. Christ certainly would not call His Father a liar ; )
or you are delusional, hey you wouldn't be a first, there are people making all sorts of claims from Allah to Buddha and aliens.
If i were delusional, you are correct, I would not be the first.
I am not delusional, however. I cannot convince you or anyone else of that though... unless perhaps they also hear Christ... or they at least understand that He did speak before, and still speaks now, though they might not yet hear or recognize Him.
What about the Ten Commandments tec? You pick and choose what to discuss? Well in psychology that is called confirmation bias.
What about the ten commandments?
There is nothing wrong with them. Each one stems from love.
It does matter that the letters were written in Greek, because we do not have the originals, being so what we have could be forged, edited or completely made up. The level of education matters as well as the vocal tradition has a natural tendency to alter a story when its passed from person to person, its Chinese whispers at a greater scale. The contradictions matter as well because it shows that the presupposed authors of the letters being passed from church to church, all had a different understandings of Jesus and his message, for example before Jesus closes his eyes at the cross did a concerned and depressed Jesus say "Father, Father, why have you forsaken me?" and then died or did a positive Jesus say "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." and then died ?
But this is not a contradiction. He said both. People who witness something do not all see the exact same things. Some hear or see details that are not seen or heard by others, or remember details that others might have forgotten.
There is harmony in the various accounts. The contradictions that people speak of in the gospels are minor, and change nothing about Christ or his teachings.
This isn't even scratching the surface of incoherence’s and yet somehow I have to make sense of all this, spend an a lifetime to find the right Christian domination, or listen to you? which you are neither a prophet or an apostle (which ironically the bible warns of)?
You only have to listen to Christ.
No one else.
You can read his words and acknowledging them as truth... and you can also, if you want to hear Him and know the truth, ask HIM to open your eyes and grant you ears to hear. So that you may SEE and HEAR... the truth, what He speaks and even in what is written.
Neither you or Kassan are correct in saying that, the fact is that you completely disregard what I wrote, seek Jewish sources of information, not seek Christian sources of Jewish information, I will not entertain this notion anymore, the fact you do not understand the Hebrew translation of the word messiah (yes, the Christian version you do, which not one Hebrew speaking person will agree with you), and that the old testament does not even speak of Jesus, yet Christians borrow a page from the Jehovah’s Whitenesses speaking where the bible is silent.
I have read some Jewish sources of information. But there is not just one opinion...there are many and why would they be any different than Christian scholars? They all base their research on what came before them, mistakes and all. I do have my Lord to listen TO... and since He was there, and Jewish scholars (and Christian theologians) and such were not, then I will listen to Him. (I don't pay heed to "Christian scholars" either.... and rarely ever read them or their views)
Moses and the Prophets do speak to Christ.
He simply was not what some (or even many) expected and interpreted from those scriptures... (just as He will not be what many expect when He returns to gather those who belong to Him).
Peace to you,
tammy