250,000 Jehovah's Witnesses have died refusing blood

by nicolaou 739 Replies latest watchtower medical

• 

  Finkelstein

  250,000 might very well be a over fabrication particularly since the person who proclaimed this has no factual

  evidence to back up that claim.

  She probably pulled that number up just to draw attention to the matter, over-inflated most likely.

  You could probably debate the number of deaths to ad nauseam but the real important and core problem is why were people

  willing to let themselves die by refusing a BT in the first place, the more important issue to be sure.

  1 person or 1 million is really irrelevant in this case.
• 

  Simon

  You could probably debate the number of deaths to ad nauseam but the real important and core problem is why were people willing to let themselves die by refusing a BT in the first place, the more important issue to be sure. 1 person or 1 million is really irrelevant in this case

  That is exactly the issue.

  By making it about a rediculous made-up number it discredits and diminishes the real issue and does more harm than good.

  The WTS does plenty of bad things, we do not need to make things up!
• 

  adamah

  BTW, that 250k figure works out to 14 deaths per day (!) from JWs refusing blood transfusions! Sounds like a stretch to me, and as with everything else in life, the old saying is, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". The one(s) who makes such claims need a show their work to validate their claim. Asking for validation is not unreasonable.

  Cedars said-

  If the purpose of this thread is to deride and make a public example of someone, assuming that's your thing, then it's mission accomplished. If, however, the original poster sees a misleading tweet that he wants rectified to prevent any lurkers being misled, the most effective way to do this is go to the source and get the tweet deleted, which is easily done.

  As an aside: you may find it more productive to not attempt to determine the motives of others, but rather listening to what they have to SAY without ascribing motives. Why? For one, you don't really KNOW why the OP started the thread, do you?

  But the fact is, even if Nic (was it?) started the thread with the WORST intentions (in YOUR opinion), it really doesn't matter! Why not? Only the TRUTH, AKA the facts, matter. The truth remains the truth, REGARDLESS of who speaks it or whatever their motives for determining the truth may be.

  On the other hand, I get the impression that I'm dealing with someone who cannot take personal resposibility, and possesses a fragile ego such that you cannot handle ANY criticism (you even entered the discussion EXPECTING to take offense: you even predicted as much)! Are you expecting to be given some kind of special treatment, as if demanding others to walk on eggshells when it comes to you or your efforts?

  EDITED after posted, to respond to this comment:

  Cedars said-

  But I can't help but feel a tad bemused that the fact that I've helped fixed the problem posed by this thread is now just a side issue to my apparent failings. That in itself is telling.

  How does her deleting an unproven claim "fix" the problem? That reads more like an admission of guilt, after having been caught in a lie!

  sigh....

  Aside from that, I'm out of this thread: there's far better uses of my energy than wasting efforts on those who can't take the advice they willingless dispense to others.

  Adam
• 

  Marvin Shilmer

  -

  “I did my own calculation and came up with 29,000 extra JW deaths worldwide since 1961 as a result of refusing blood based on the New Zealand figure.”

  Yes. That’s approximately what you should get if you don’t prorate the sample size (the number of JWs in New Zealand) to align with the regional demographic.

  Prorated to match New Zealand’s regional population and hospital system the figure moves to about 50,000. This is all explained in my presentation of material and data. (See: http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com/2012/02/more-than-50000-dead.html

  “Getting the exact figure would involve laboriously adding up the number of publishers for each year and dividing it by the number of years. Has anyone done that already?”

  Yes. I constructed a calculator using that very information. I also transposed this information over New Zealand’s demographic and hospital regions.

  “Plus there is really no way to know how representative the New Zealand figure is of JWs worldwide over the whole period, or just how strict the New Zealand figure is in attributing the 19 deaths to refusal of blood.”

  Based on New Zealand’s well-documented state of citizenry’s health and healthcare system, if anything the number of deaths due to refusing blood should be lower in New Zealand compared to the rest of the world population, including the United States.

  “Because the numbers are small, interpretation on that crucial point would have a huge impact on the overall calculation. It's not a very reliable way of producing an overall worldwide number over a period of decades.”

  The statistical sample is not small. The population of the sample is whatever it is. In this case it happens to be a number that when conservatively applied to the larger population of JWs shows an increased mortality to the tune of 50,000 deaths over the 50-year period of 1961 to 2011.

  Marvin Shilmer
• 

  Marvin Shilmer

  -

  “Marvin, I call false equivalencies on your extrapolations regarding 250,000 deaths over blood transfusion.”

  What equivalencies?

  Marvin Shilmer
• 

  JWdaughter

  Most blood issues never make the papers. So, we hear about children and we hear about those who have not made clear blood directives or those who are mentally incompetent to make their own decision or those whose families object to their choice to reject blood remedies.

  On the other hand: Another thing to figure in is that in the first world countries, if one makes it to the hospital, then blood may be an issue, but for much of the rest of the world, a hospital or doctor is pretty much a luxury that few can afford and JWs join in with the non JWs in the medical neglect-they simply don't have the kind of accesss that we take for granted. They are gonna die whether or not they are a JW.

  As one pointed out before, even the smallest estimate is a travesty simply because it is unneccessary. Time itself is our enemy in the game of life, why give death an edge?
• 

  Simon

  Based on New Zealand’s well-documented state of citizenry’s health and healthcare system, if anything the number of deaths due to refusing blood should be lower in New Zealand compared to the rest of the world population, including the United States.

  Wait, I thought the US had the best healthcare system in the world?

  You're saying that NZ's system must be significantly better than the US to make a noticable difference (i.e. to justify using the figures you did).

  Is this correct?
• 

  Simon

  Oh and BTW Marvin: kudos to you for sticking to your 50,000 number despite all the arguments to the contrary. Maybe Cedars can have a private word with your or something?
• 

  Marvin Shilmer

  -

  “Your blog premise is the JW death rate in New Zealand from anemia is 0.26/1000.”

  besty,

  That premise is found nowhere on my blog.

  I recommend you further your review.

  To repeat something I expressed earlier in this discussion, my extrapolations are not based on a mortality rate but, rather, the actual number of deaths attributable to blood refusal. Dr Beliaev et al did a very thorough job establishing this data. This hard number is then compared with the population of New Zealand JWs prorated to match the data set source.

  Marvin Shilmer
• 

  latinthunder

  The reason why this figure is so hard to pin down is because of the extreme rate of membership turnover in the Watchtower which effectively hides their true membership count between 1961 and today. If someone decides to "go JW" for the duration of their "visit" they are endangering their lives and any dependents they may have. How many people go into the Watchtower and never come out? The math on this is complex, a lot more than anyone is leading on.

  From 1961-2013 how many people were, at any time, adhering to the Watchtower anti-blood edict?The number is impossible to determine, but we can safely say that it's a lot more than the official numbers that the Watchtower publishes. How many Watchtower Bible-study students deaths have occurred as a result of the blood doctrine? There are many factors to consider when adding up a total death count. I see 250,000 as a bit high, but the backlash in this thread is totally overkill. We should be gently correcting AAWA and groups like them, not throwing stones.

  I think the 250,000 number would best fit a total wrongful death count when factoring in all the destructive Watchtower doctrines. When you add up the blood doctrine, suicide due to DF'ings, vaccine and organ transplant bans etc the number would be staggering.