Video is up - Grandma pleads with JW Granddaughter

by BONEZZ 60 Replies latest jw friends

  • adamah
    adamah

    Steve said-

    LisaRose, well said. I find my reaction to this nicely moderating as the days go by. This is what I love about JWnet.

    Why? I thought you and LisaRose had a valid point, but are acting somewhat reluctant to voice it.

    Bonez said-

    However the WTBTS carries most of the responsibility. When my mother and father DA'd they had been good dubbies for over 50 years...morally without reproach...my father an elder...an honorable person who was always asked to be accounts servant, one of the crappiest positions but he always obeyed Mother"...until the molestation scandal and the U.N. fiasco. He could not bear to go along with the borg anymore. So the WTBTS states from the podium and in the mags that these good people should be treated as fornicators, drunkards, idolators, etc. because they had the audacity to DA.


    You seem to want to have your cake and eat it, too, saying how the WTBTS bears the ultimate responsibility, but then once it comes time to actually naming names and defining WHO constitutes the WTBTS, you want to excuse longtime JWs who are family members?

    The problem is the organization is made up of people, AKA followers, and not just the eight men currently serving on the GB. If we start handing out amnesty cards to relatives, we're going to need ALOT of cards. Rather, EVERYONE who's ever been a member of the JWs deserves a share of the blame and moral culpability for shunning, and don't worry about there not being enough blame to go around, since when it comes to the damage caused by the group, there's sufficient quantities for 2nd servings.



    As sweet as your mother is, and no matter how much the sight of an elderly women begging to see her granddaughter before she goes blind tugs at everyone's heart-strings, your mother WAS a JW member for 50 years (!) and is responsible for raising YOU in the Borg, and you in turn are responsible for allowing your daughter to be raised in the Borg.

    If your mother EVER shunned anyone else as a member of JWs, she's now experiencing payback and being forced to sleep in a bed she made for 50 years(!). She knows full-well how the shunning game works: she can't play dumb, with the "I don't know why they are they doing this to me, those mean JWs?" It rings rather hallow, and smells like the blantant attempt to cause embarrassment and harm that you've openly admitted it to be.

    While it's great that she finally used her God-given common sense (!) to extricate herself from that cult, it doesn't atone for past sins committed in the name of service TO the cult, where the road to Hell is paved with good intentions (but nevertheless, the road STILL goes to Hell). But to now expect for special exceptions to be granted to her?

    Besides, were any posters on JWN actually awoken by such shaming attempts, forcing you to feeling guilty over shunning someone after having been publicly shamed like this?

    Highly doubtful, since basic human empathy is easily overcome by self-rationalization (eg "I'm shunning them as a sign of my LUV for the person"), as well as only feeding into the notorious JW persecution complex. That's why the strategy is likely only to backfire: it's worn as a 'badge of courage', and interpreted as torment and persecution sustained in the name of her LUV for Jehovah. You all know that!

    Instead, it's better to not try and hurt them back by shaming and embarrassing them, but considering the value of focusing on the self-inflicted HARM that individuals are only subjecting themselves to.

    That will take individuals who have the courage to publicly apologize for having EVER shunned a DFed member of the JWs, in order to OWN UP TO IT, ADMIT to IT, and even to reach out privately and apologize to the person(s) (if possible); it would be nice for this women to take personal responsibility for the harm she caused, and not simply to continue to point fingers ("I don't know why the JWs are being mean to me?" playing naive act).

    I'd be impressed by seeing a video of that, rather than another video of begging and pleading about 'how much it hurts' when you're subject to being shunned; that only reinforces that the shunning is having it's desired effect, and plays right into the cult mind-set by providing confirmation that shunning works.

    As ex-JWs, we're in the unique position of being able to take a moral stance of standing up and saying to insiders, eg:

    "I was a member for XX years, and even though deep-down I knew it was wrong, hurtful, and harmful to the person, I wrongly told myself (after hearing it from the platform) that shunning was actually the "loving thing to do" and in their best interests, so I went along with the practice. I now know it was wrong to use the power of a mob to control individuals, and I was a bully who found my courage by being a member of a mindless mob who engaged in it to "run with the herd" or risk being trampled myself."

    I've written an article on the subject:

    http://awgue.weebly.com/countering-jw-shunning-how-the-implications-of-stanley-milgrams-work-may-suggest-using-a-different-approach.html

    Adam

  • clarity
    clarity

    Adam ... I remember reading your article and thought it

    was absolutely brilliant!

    >

    Here is the BUT.....in your post, you infer that getting shunned &

    suffering the pain of it,..... is individually our own fault!

    Am I wrong?

    >

    Your argument has echos of the wt society double speak!

    1925 fail ...was all the dubs fault for expecting too much!

    1975 fail ... was all the dubs fault for running ahead & getting

    too excited! Well, Who gave us all those ideas!!!!!!!!!!!!

    >

    Etc

    Now you are saying ....it is your own fault, you knew the

    consequences of changing your mind! Did she! Did we?

    >

    Did we make all this shit UP? When many of us joined,

    Mary Lou included ... all this shunning shi$ didn't exist.

    They just keep adding to the list of offences as the yrs go on!

    >

    This divisive cult needs to be stopped. They have no honour.

    No authority that any need to honour!

    >

    Shunning & disfellowshipping is WRONG on so many levels!

    >

    It needs no adherance or honour & should have no import in our lives.

    >

    If anyone wants to walk away... we have the Freedom to do so without

    them having any jurisdiction in our lives ...They have no right to BULLY!

    Yes, it is their little boys club & can cross us off their list.....but by dog...they

    have no right ...at all.... to punish!

    AND... if and when you make it to Mary Lou's age, then & only

    then, can you tell me that you wouldn't be longing & agonizing

    for the person you love!

    clarity

    !

  • adamah
    adamah

    Clarity said-

    Here is the BUT.....in your post, you infer that getting shunned & suffering the pain of it,..... is individually our own fault! Am I wrong?

    No, I'm not talking about you as the shunned.

    I'm talking about when you were an active member of the JWS: if you shunned someone, ANYONE who was DFed back THEN, then YOU deserve the blame for participating in their shunning. You owe THAT PERSON an apology for your going along with group-think.

    Clarity said-

    Your argument has echos of the wt society double speak!

    1925 fail ...was all the dubs fault for expecting too much!

    1975 fail ... was all the dubs fault for running ahead & getting

    too excited! Well, Who gave us all those ideas!!!!!!!!!!!!

    If you was an elder who delivered public talks on JW doctrine, or if you simply were a member of the R&F who sat in the audience and nodded your noggin in agreement like a bobble-head, then you deserve a piece of the blame pie. The JWs ARE (or WERE) you. You WERE a JW.

    Hence you should own up to your culpability, as until you DO, you don't have the moral authority or credibility to demand anyone else to desist from a practice you claim to be harmful, when you're not even willing to reflect on and admit to engaging in the VERY SAME PRACTICE YOURSELF! And only after it happens to you, now you're saying "Hold on a minute, fellas! This shunning thing isn't a good idea, after all!" You're NOW expecting others to change their evil ways, yet not even willing to publicly state that YOU engaged in it, and NOW regret your participation?

    Until anyone does, they only risk coming off as just another self-centered narcissist who demands everyone else do things for them, belly-aching about "how much it hurts ME", as someone who tries to pass the buck off to a nebulous "them", not even willing to admit that "them" IS also the same guy who's looking back in the mirror: YOU (or, it WAS you, what you USED to be).

    Point being, this is a chance to break the cycle, where the first step is HONESTLY reflecting on the harm you may have caused others, creating a mental list of every SNEER you may have given to DF member, every "quick, look the other way and act like they don't exist" you performed, every "quick, let's pick up the pace to avoid them" you said to another shunning JW, etc. I know, it's hard to admit and very painful to reflect upon, since you have to admit being controlled by a mob, but it is a necessary message to convey, and actually a self-empowering process for someone who does it, even a necessary part of growing beyond the "cult experience".

    Clarity said-

    Now you are saying ....it is your own fault, you knew the consequences of changing your mind! Did she! Did we? Did we make all this shit UP? When many of us joined, Mary Lou included ... all this shunning shi$ didn't exist. They just keep adding to the list of offences as the yrs go on!

    Only each individual can answer that question for themselves, but it's extremely likely that many JWs didn't even think about it, delusionally telling themselves the classic line, "That kind of concern about being shunned only applies to everyone ELSE, since it will NEVER happen to me!!!"

    Such thinking goes right along with the personal narcissism which one needs to have in order to be susceptible to JOINING a cult which exploits those with that susceptibility, in the first place.

    But being that the practice of shunning DFed started in it's current form in 1953, do you think it credible to believe that someone could be a JW over any portion of that 60 yrs since, and NOT be aware of how the shunning game is played?

    (As hard as it may be to accept, cults aren't the result of some evil geniuses who work out a way to exploit social interactions in order to control others, but a manifestation of what happens when certain like-minded people form a group, and end up harming others in the process since they've placed loyalty to the group above all else, driven by an ideological/theological cause.)

    Adam

  • clarity
    clarity

    Adam ......

    "If you was an elder who delivered public talks on JW doctrine, or if you simply were a member of the R&F who sat in the audience and nodded your noggin in agreement like a bobble-head, then you deserve a piece of the blame pie. The JWs ARE (or WERE) you. You WERE a JW.

    Hence you should own up to your culpability, as until you DO, you don't have the moral authority or credibility to demand anyone else to desist from a practice you claim to be harmful, when you're not even willing to reflect on and admit to engaging in the VERY SAME PRACTICE YOURSELF! And only after it happens to you, now you're saying "Hold on a minute, fellas! This shunning thing isn't a good idea, after all!" You're NOW expecting others to change their evil ways, yet not even willing to publicly state that YOU engaged in it, and NOW regret your participation?"

    >

    For starters, I think most do own up, to all the dopey rituals & actions commanded by the RULERS in NY.

    Whom did you have in mind ... that has not felt the remorse & admitted it. Admitted they went d2d &

    taught lies! Didn't know they were lies, at the time. When we or they, knew better ..they did better!

    >

    Sticking to this 'case', Mary Lou & her husband did all that & were df'd for it! They had been shunned for years!

    >

    How can you blame the victim. It is almost as if you are saying that the GB are not to blame for the mind

    control, and hideous doctrine. Not to blame for pounding into jw's heads that they will die if they don't obey !

    >

    I'll end by saying, society is not better off when we point a finger and say "too bad you deserve it",

    society is only as good as we are, as compassonate, as forgiving, as kind, as standup kickass supporters

    of the oppressed .... this world can be a wonderful place. And yes we do need to admit, firstly to ourselves,

    that we are culpable.

    This world would have been a much better place without the these divisive issues & terrorizing of religion!

    >

    Have a good night

    clarity

  • BONEZZ
    BONEZZ

    Adahma...I'm afraid you are on to my mother...she's really a serial shunner that has been caught in her own web.

    Seriously, or maybe not, considering your line of reasoning which sounds like Karma-gone-bad.

    So a woman divorces her husband but he comes back to her home a few years later and rapes her...it's really her fault or at least a portion of it because they had sex together at one time.

    You sound like a defense attorney for terrorists and serial murderers. Those people in the Colorado had it coming to them because at one time or another they sneered or snubbed the poor little Joker...get real.

    I never said we did not have a hand in creating this little monster. We did because we followed JW rules. However I know my mother and father never shunned anyone and they would never have shunned family because we talked about it. My father was a hard-line JW in most respects until 1975 flew by without a wimper. He then started questioning and double checking things.

    You know and I know it's not normal to shun family because a cult says so.

    The main reason my daughter is so hard core is because her mother is still in the cult and influenced her a great deal, then she married up and coming elder boy.

    I gotta go now because someone just hit my car...not gonna turn it into the insurance company though because I remember that I hit a car about 15 years ago...I probably had it coming.

    BONEZZ

    PS. I never shunned anyone either

  • adamah
    adamah

    Clarity said-

    For starters, I think most do own up, to all the dopey rituals & actions commanded by the RULERS in NY. Whom did you have in mind ... that has not felt the remorse & admitted it.

    Admitted they went d2d & taught lies! Didn't know they were lies, at the time. When we or they, knew better ..they did better!

    D2D is not shunning: it's RECRUITMENT. Shunning is harmful and injurious to others; having to answer a doorbell after someone knocks on it (only to tell them, "I'm not interested") is merely annoying. The householder rejected a sales pitch, so no harm, no foul. Comparing that to the pain inflicted by shunning (social ostracism) really trivializes the pain which can be caused: are you SURE you want to make that comparison?

    But putting all that aside for a moment: have YOU (Clarity) personally owned up for SHUNNING others?

    In JW world, shunning is the nuclear option when it comes to the social control that JWs can exert on other members, since EVERYTHING you heard in a KH built up to whether you shunned others or not. If you rejected blood, it would only ultimately hurt YOU (and your family members), but shunning is the RESPONSIBILITY of all members, so failing to shun is seen as letting the other congregants down. It's classic "US (insiders) vs THEM (outgroup)" thinking.

    Being DFed is only THEIR effort to kick you OUT of the group; it doesn't automatically make YOU denouce THEIR practices as harmful: that requires taking active steps of your own.

    I'm thinking of making a video (a 30 second public service spot) of five or so ex-JWs who are willing to publicly stand up on camera, with cuts between them all saying the same sentiment, and then posting to YouTube. The problem is finding those who are actually willing to appear in it.

    I started a thread on the topic a few months ago, where the idea floated wasn't even to make a video but merely to post one's "shunning confession"; only ONE person had the courage to even admit their regrets for having been a shunner. The silence was deafening.

    Not surprisingly, a group of ex-JWs shares the same problem of inability to accept personal responsibility, which also explains WHY they ended up in a cult, to begin with. Things will NEVER change, unless someone is willing to lead the way and say, "THIS (shunning) is WRONG, and it primarily hurts those who participate in it, since they're dehumanizing primarily THEMSELVES".

    Clarity said-

    Sticking to this 'case', Mary Lou & her husband did all that & were df'd for it! They had been shunned for years! How can you blame the victim. It is almost as if you are saying that the GB are not to blame for the mind control, and hideous doctrine. Not to blame for pounding into jw's heads that they will die if they don't obey !

    What are you proposing: perhaps a points system, where some JW gets immunity from shunning after so many credits earned, say by pioneering, being an elder, etc?

    Ludicrious.

    The ANSWER is to accept personal responsibility for one's own actions, and RUN (don't WALK) away from the JWs!

    MOST people today have the common sense to realize that simply because someone is able to run a printing press and produce multi-colored magazines, they DON'T have to accept the ideas presented in them as truths! If you DIDN'T, then don't try to blame the publishers of poorly-worded pamphlets for YOUR FAILURE to control your life in the past!

    I'll end by saying, society is not better off when we point a finger and say "too bad you deserve it", society is only as good as we are, as compassonate, as forgiving, as kind, as standup kickass supporters of the oppressed .... this world can be a wonderful place. And yes we do need to admit, firstly to ourselves, that we are culpable. This world would have been a much better place without the these divisive issues & terrorizing of religion!

    Make up your mind: do you want to blame the nebulous meanies in Brooklyn who forced you to shun others via printing their toxic thoughts on paper (which you were forced to read AND obey), or do you want to blame those individuals who actually perpetuated the harm in the local congregation? You can't have your cake and eat it, and the first step in calling for an end to a harmful practice is accepting your ROLE in allowing it to continue.

    Bonez said-

    So a woman divorces her husband but he comes back to her home a few years later and rapes her...it's really her fault or at least a portion of it because they had sex together at one time. You sound like a defense attorney for terrorists and serial murderers. Those people in the Colorado had it coming to them because at one time or another they sneered or snubbed the poor little Joker...get real.

    Your line of reasoning is so completely absurd, it almost doesn't warrant a response (I will, since it may be useful to point out your illogic).

    The first has committed rape, and the guy in CO was a murderer. Hyperbole much?

    That's exactly the kind of tendency to stretch a claim that threatens to backfire, since it's a false equivalency, comparing rape and mass murder to social ostracism.

    I never said we did not have a hand in creating this little monster.

    I noticed you DIDN'T say that.

    We did because we followed JW rules.

    Ahhh, the classic failed defense of the Nuremburg Trials: "But I was only following orders of my superiors". It didn't fly with the Nazis, and it doesn't fly with rank-and-file JWs.

    Did you actually bother to read the blog article on Milgram's study?

    However I know my mother and father never shunned anyone and they would never have shunned family because we talked about it. My father was a hard-line JW in most respects until 1975 flew by without a wimper. He then started questioning and double checking things.

    OF COURSE they didn't shun anyone, or support the JW policy EVEN WHEN THEY WERE IN THE ORGANIZATION FOR 50 YEARS!

    What a fool I was to suggest they supported JW and their policies for 50 years....

    You know and I know it's not normal to shun family because a cult says so.

    No spit, Sparlock. That goes without saying to MOST people (let alone to an atheist like me for 40 years).

    The main reason my daughter is so hard core is because her mother is still in the cult and influenced her a great deal, then she married up and coming elder boy.

    Apparently your daughter didn't get the memo, or who should we blame for you marrying and inseminating a JW, such that your daughter ended up being raised in a cult that taught the EXACT OPPOSITE?

    PS. I never shunned anyone either

    Oh, of course NOT. In fact, no one did, since everyone was an angel JW, and followed Jesus' example in the stoning of the adultress by refusing to cast the first stone.

    Wait a minute: didn't you claim in the other thread that you never were baptized, and hence why you felt your daughter was unfairly shunning you? That's right: I remember now, as I pointed out how you don't understand the JW policy, since they shun 'opposers' (those who speak out against their work) just like they shun DFed apostates, even if not ever a JW.

    Not that it matters: like most people, you will do as you wish (which is ironic, since you'd think someone who is driven by personal narcissism and would be able to recognize the same basic drive existing in others, and be able to use that knowledge to your advantage....)

    Adam

  • BONEZZ
    BONEZZ

    Adamah

    I really find it rather humorous that you feel the need to attack a defenseless grandma...and me. You infer that we are lying. Your Mema must have been really mean to you. I feel sorry for you.

    Attacking the victim is the lowest. You are quite pathetic and I refuse to feed your infantile ego with any more responses.

    Flame on boy!

    -BONEZZ

  • besty
    besty

    hi bonezz - great video and hope it has the best possible outcome for you and your family - all of them!

    (don't know if you recall we met briefly at Tahoe 2009 I think - happy days)

  • besty
    besty

    http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g201310/3-things-money-cannot-buy/

    The number 1 thing money can't buy is.....<drum roll....>

    FAMILY UNITY

    ain't that the truth about the truth...

  • adamah
    adamah

    Bonezz said-

    I really find it rather humorous that you feel the need to attack a defenseless grandma...and me.

    I really find it rather predictable that you feel the need to hide behind your "defenseless" mom's apron, and choose not to accept your roles after supporting the Borg for 50 years (!). Wallow in that "but I'm a victim!" role, since I predict you're not leaving it anytime soon.

    BTW, you seem trapped in the 'either/or' proposition, that someone who is a target of shunning cannot actually be GUILTY of shunning others. That's silly, as real-life just doesn't work in that clear-cut binary fashion.

    To use an example of child abuse, many molesters point out how they were molested when young, and while it MAY be true, they're trying to play the 'victim card' as an excuse for abusing children. It doesn't fly in court, since OBVIOUSLY the cycle has to be broken somewhere. Getting a child molester to face up to the harm he caused others is a late-stage effort at breaking the cycle, whereas getting the children he molested to see that they can choose to NOT see themselves as victims is taking personal responsibility to not let the damage and harm have an effect.

    You infer that we are lying.

    Any person can read this thread and the prior, seeing for themselves where you've repeatedly ADMITTED that your intent was/is to harm and shame your OWN daughter (with repeated words to the effect of, "we're tired of turning the other cheek"). This video is the result. Don't deny what anyone can plainly see with their own two eyes.

    My main point (which I've EXPLICITLY STATED, not implied) is that your mother seemingly remains unable to accept any role in JW shunning, even after being in for 50 years (!). Sadly, that's a predictable pattern in ex-JWs, since few have the moral courage to stand up and admit that they were wrong in the past, mistakenly thinking that admitting their past wrongs is a sign of weakness, when it's actually the OPPOSITE, a sign of STRENGTH and COURAGE. So after failing to do that, she's now expecting her granddaughter to admit to what she's not even willing to say, while giving her some "brownie persecution points" in JWLand by making her a martyr? Are you SURE your mom was in for 50 years? She doesn't understand JW thought processes, if she was.

    Bottom line is when push comes to shove, few are seemingly willing to accept their role in having shunned others, and you've seemingly PROVEN that point. I'm gladly waiting to be proven wrong.

    Your Mema must have been really mean to you. I feel sorry for you.

    For one, you don't actually "feel sorry" for me, so save the faux passive-aggressive apologies for someone else...

    And you're PROVING you didn't read the blog article, since I discussed my own mother in the article, and even publicly apologized to her in it:

    http://awgue.weebly.com/countering-jw-shunning-how-the-implications-of-stanley-milgrams-work-may-suggest-using-a-different-approach.html

    Attacking the victim is the lowest.

    Yet you refuse to tell us who is responsible FOR shunning? Lay it on me: who's to blame here? Who exactly is "they"?

    You are quite pathetic and I refuse to feed your infantile ego with any more responses. Flame on boy!

    So, I'll take that as a "NO" then, and your mother won't use her past experience as a JW for something that's actually helpful to others, making a video where she accepts the blame for the harm she's inflicted so we all can denounce shunning as a harmful practice?

    OR, does she prefer to still serve the WTBTS, remaining trapped in the GB-approved role of ex-JWs who see themselves as the victims and proving the feedback that the social pressure is having it's intended effect?

    Ironic, no?

    Adam

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