New Homo erectus Skull Shakes up Palaeontology

by cofty 192 Replies latest social current

  • adamah
    adamah

    Bohm said-

    And ordinary people unable to look at the chart or hear a statement like "a human has 23 chromosomes" and understand what its trying to accomplish?

    it's NOT talking about variations which exist within a single species, eg abnormality of chromosomal defects in humans, which is a HUGE TOPIC in itself,

    no ofcourse not. Like if i said: "a human has two arms" I would not be talking about the variation in the number of arms found in humans. I would be conveying an ordinary fact about human anatomy and both laypersons and scientists would easily be able to understand there are humans with more or less arms than 2. Imagine how painful it would be to read an article on comparative anatomy and every number or feature would need to be prefixed with: "the mode of the number of tails on pigs is 1".

    That goes back to my point about needing to consider the context in which the information is presented, since anyone who's had any experience with looking at charts/graphs knows to first determine what the information is attempting to represent.

    ...which is my point. when someone is saying: " a human has 23 chromosomes" consider the context and dont say "yah but if the context was abnormalities and chromosomal defects THEN....".


    So you agree at the end that some facts ARE relative, depending on context, and an answer marked as 'correct/true' would depend upon what that context was/is.

    Now, compare to Cofty's use of the term 'fact' in this thread, which he improperly assumed as a synonym for 'reality', with facts being unchangeable.

    In a thread discussing a recent Palentology scientific find (Homo erectus), Cofty used a non-scientific definition of the word 'fact'. SBF rightly and correctly pointed out his misunderstanding (as SBF and myself have done in many other threads, to make the same point), but Cofty refused to even CONSIDER the issue, since he dogmatically KNOWS his use is correct, and everyone else's is WRONG, even Dr Eugenie Scott! That's just more dogmatism, but simply a scientific flavor of dogma (by refusing to accept the accepted use in science, since he's misunderstoof the term for what, almost four years?).

    I dared to confirmed that Cofty was WRONG on his useage of the word in a scientific context (I've known about the discrepancy between laypeople and scientists for what, 40 years now?), but I'm not holding my breath, waiting for Cofty apologize to others perpetuating the misunderstanding.

    (Ishmael (MadGiant) had the intellectual integrity to admit that his prior understanding of the term was incorrect, a few pages ago. Saying "I was wrong" is a sign of STRENGTH, not WEAKNESS, which is something many posters here SHOULD learn, as there's been far-more egregious examples of dogmatism in a few other threads.)

    In the meantime, SBF has apparently stormed off to rejoin the ranks of the loving arms of the JWs, since they apparently offer the false sense of certainty in the form of dogmatism that is all-too-often found outside of the JWs, too (just a different flavor of dogmatism). Fact is, people CAN see TTATT and IGNORE ALL OF IT, just to play the JW game. It happens more often than some here would like to admit, as it means they too can back-slide, the proverbial dog returning to its own vomit.

    But YES, science does use standards and consensus opinion, but the difference is it's USUALLY not dogmatic; the ideal is that if someone can present evidence for a REASON to use method, then lay it on us, but be prepared to make a case that others will accept. But the FACT of the matter is that science works better than religious faith, warts and all.

    Adam

  • bohm
    bohm

    adamah:

    So you agree at the end that some facts ARE relative, depending on context, and an answer marked as 'correct/true' would depend upon what that context was/is.

    Lets not talk about "some" facts lets be concrete. I think when a person says "most humans have two arms" thats a fact. When a person says "humans have two arms" I would also call that a fact because its obvious the person is not saying a man who loose an arm stop being a human, and it take delibrate misunderstanding to read that meaning into it. I would say those things are facts because the concept referred to has a clear meaning, it is observable and it has been established with all probability to be true.

    I might be wrong, but i actually think thats how most people think about facts.

    In a thread discussing a recent Palentology scientific find (Homo erectus), Cofty used a non-scientific definition of the word 'fact'.

    I havent read the thread and dont have an oppinion right now..

    So whats your definition?

  • cofty
    cofty

    Something can be accepted as a fact and later turn out to be false. It is therefore discovered to be not a true fact after all. It enjoyed the status of fact for a while and perhaps was close enough to reality to be useful. It does not continue to enjoy the status of fact and is discarded. If you want to argue that a fact that turns out to be false is still a "untrue fact" then who cares?

    We can never be 100% sure that anything we accept as a fact is safe, although for all practical purposes in a informal forum we can talk about things as if they were 100% written-in-stone facts.

    The point you have been making ad nauseum is nothing but pedantry in the context of the thread which has just become yet another pissing contest for you.

    Just because I can't be bothered to respond to your self-indulgent walls of text doesn't mean I am agreeing with you.

  • adamah
    adamah

    Bohm said-

    I think when a person says "most humans have two arms" thats a fact. When a person says "humans have two arms" I would also call that a fact because its obvious the person is not saying a man who loose an arm stop being a human, and it take delibrate misunderstanding to read that meaning into it.

    You don't think those two statements equally factual, do you?

    Obviously the first is MORE accurate (i.e. confirms to actual observation), since the latter claim couldbe falsified (disproven) simply by finding a human being who lost a limb in an accident, or who was born with one (or even NO) arms, e.g. thalidomide babies. Last I checked, they still are considered humans, despite having no arms. The claim can be falsified easily; it is impossible to falsify to disprove the first claim, since there is orders of more evidence to back it up as true. All it takes to disprove the latter is ONE example, and it's thus a riskier claim to make (esp dogmatically).

    Bohm said-

    In a thread discussing a recent Palentology scientific find (Homo erectus), Cofty used a non-scientific definition of the word 'fact'.

    I havent read the thread and dont have an oppinion right now..

    "You haven't read it"? it's the very thread you're reading right now, LOL! Read back a few pages.

    So whats your definition?

    It's been discussed ad nauseum in this very thread (per Cofty), so same advice: read back a few pages to prevent Cofty from vomiting.

    Adam

  • Comatose
    Comatose

    Where is Tammy when she could be some fun?

  • bohm
    bohm

    adamah:

    Me: I think when a person says "most humans have two arms" thats a fact. When a person says "humans have two arms" I would also call that a fact because its obvious the person is not saying a man who loose an arm stop being a human, and it take delibrate misunderstanding to read that meaning into it.

    Adamah: You don't think those two statements equally factual, do you?

    Well, if you read the sentence you will be able to tell I think: "its obvious the person is not saying a man who loose an arm stop being a human, and it take delibrate misunderstanding to read that meaning into it."

    Once again, the problem is you are making a very big deal out of being able to read things into sentences that are commonly implied in ordinary communication, and for all that care you repeat the same argument I outlined above in a slightly different logical form:

    the latter claim couldbe falsified (disproven) simply by finding a human being who lost a limb in an accident, or who was born with one (or even NO) arms, e.g. thalidomide babies. Last I checked, they still are considered humans, despite having no arms.

    I am confused.

    "You haven't read it"? it's the very thread you're reading right now, LOL!

    I havent read all of it. But congratulation on finding a way to misunderstand that sentence as well and having a laugh...

    The thread is 7 pages long and contain multiple definitions and assertions. Cant you just point to the post where you feel you give your definition?

    If I am going to go with what Cofty says in his last post, i would say it seems like we agree, perhaps with the difference I use the word "fact" slightly narrower to mainly reflect observations, but its hard to tell.

  • adamah
    adamah

    Bohm, I'm not going to quibble over semantics which you clearly don't value, anyway; ignoring such differences in the meanings in words won't make the differences disappear, as the World of science will continue spinning, with or without you or I understanding the terminology.

    You're just going to have to figure it out on your own (esp. if you can't be bothered to read what's just been discussed), as I cannot do your thinking or understanding for you.

    Adam

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    Do you mean that because there is still much to learn about particle physics there are still plenty places to hide a god-of-the-gaps?-cofty

    Absolutey, there will always be gaps, that was jus one example in my collection. Its a big collection LOL!

    Those gaps are rapidly disappearing too.-cofty

    In my opinion there are more gaps, as each new discovery is made double the gaps are revealed.

    There is nothing to stop a christian doing good science as long as they leave god outside the lab.-cofty

    A very good point you make. I agree, God should be left outside the lab, regardless whether one is a believer or not. Is your post, in your view evidence of no intellegent creator?

    Kate xx

  • bohm
    bohm

    Bohm, I'm not going to quibble over semantics which you clearly don't value,

    Its a bit of a funny way to summarize the discussion.

    ignoring such differences in the meanings in words won't make the differences disappear

    differences with what? between your view a scientist is a pedantic person which, going by the dictionary definition of pedantic, seem to be entirely contrary to how scientists behave and my view of a scientist? the (alleged) difference between your definition of fact which you dont bother to give and my definition? I dont ask for your definition to be a pain in the ass, I tried to browse through the pages and couldnt find it.

    You're just going to have to figure it out on your own (esp. if you can't be bothered to read what's just been discussed), as I cannot do your thinking or understanding for you.

    I dont ask you to do my thinking for me.

  • cofty
    cofty

    In my opinion there are more gaps, as each new discovery is made double the gaps are revealed. - Kate

    A shrinking god hardly deserves our attention let alone our worship. Why do you think that the answer to something that is not yet understood shold be "god-did-it"?

    That is just a placeholder. It seeks to stop further enquiry.

    The onus is on belivers to make a positive case for god. In this venture they are failing.

    Is your post, in your view evidence of no intellegent creator?

    I'm sorry which post are you referring to?

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