How I recently handled JWs at my door

by Christian guy 310 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  UBM101

  Good one! Marked
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  krejames

  Nice job! 😊
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  Christian guy

  nowwhat?, You wrote: i am going to have to explain what the thousand year reign of christ and the "new heavens and earth" is about ..

  I'm not sure why. We don't need all the right answers to show JWs that many of their answers are clearly wrong. And because they are, the men who run the Watchtower Society cannot be what they claim to be, God's sole channel for dispensing biblical truth.

  Like JWs, many Christians are now expecting that Jesus Christ will soon judge this world. And many of them understand that following this judgment that he will rule the entire world for a literal 1,000 years. And many of them understand the words "a new heavens and a new earth" to apply to this time. So I'm not sure why you see a conflict here. Maybe it has to do with what will take place during the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

  JWs may ask, "If there is now only one hope for Christians, as the Bible tells us there is (Eph.4:4-6), and all Christians will rule as kings and priests with Christ for 1,000 years, who will be left on earth for Christians to rule over?"
  
  The reason Jehovah's Witnesses ask this question is because they teach that God will soon kill everyone on earth except true Christians. Fortunately, the Bible does not teach that. I believe the Bible indicates that when Christ returns he will judge only the Christian world. After all, two-thirds of earth's current population has never even heard the Good News of Jesus Christ, including billions of people in lands like China and India. The Watchtower Society has long taught that God will soon kill all of these people. I think they are wrong. This does not sound like the God of love, justice and mercy I worship.
  
  One thing that leads me to believe this is an incorrect understanding of Scripture is that that the Bible tells us that "Judgment begins with the house of God." (1 Peter 4:17) Jesus also said those who will rule as kings with him will "judge the 12 tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:30) And the Bible calls Christians "the Israel of God." (Gal. 6:16) To me this indicates that when Christ returns and draws all true Christians to himself (Matt. 24:31), they will then determine who among those who have heard the Good News of Jesus Christ and not taken it to heart are deserving of death. "The 12 tribes of Israel," spoken of in Luke 22:30, I believe refers to all those who have heard the good news about Jesus Christ long preached by Christians. Remember, the literal "12 tribes of Israel" had all heard the Law of Moses, but few had taken it to heart.
  
  Remember too that it was only the nation of Israel and its capital city of Jerusalem which were judged in the First Century, not the entire world, after those in Jerusalem who heeded Christ's words of warning had escaped. And First Century Jerusalem has long been understood to picture the Christian world, or as Jehovah's Witnesses call it, "Christendom."

  If this understanding is correct, that Christ is returning to judge only the Christian world, then Christians who all have the same "one hope" will then have plenty of people to rule over as they serve as kings with Christ for 1,000 years. And they will also then have plenty of people to help come to know the true God as they serve as His "priests." For that is, after all, what priests do.

  There are other ways to understand God's clearly stated intentions to have the meek inherit the earth (Ps. 37:11), and His intentions to have all Christians rule with Christ for 1,000 years, than to change the Good News preached by the apostles which offers the same "one hope" to all Christians. (Eph.4:4-6)

  By the way, most translations of the Bible tell us that even those who serve as kings and priests with Christ will do so, "on the earth." (Rev. 5:10) If this is the correct translation of the Greek, and it certainly appears to be, then "heaven" for Christians may simply represent a position of spiritual authority, not a physical location. The NWT is nearly alone in translating Rev. 5:10 as, "over the earth" rather than "on the earth." It does so, I believe, to support the Watchtower Society's two classes of Christians doctrine.
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  Island Man

  Christian guy, I must say that I'm quite impressed with the way you used good logic and scripture to expose the error of the JW message. I also like to use logic and scripture to point out their errors - that despite the fact that I'm an atheist. I humor the bible and bible based christianity to show the JWs that they aren't even correctly following the book they profess to follow. Some JWs find it odd that an atheist would use the bible to prove that JWs as false christians. Yet they would never voice similar criticism of their own Watchtower Society, in a brochure aimed at muslims, quoting from the Quran to support JW teachings.

  Now that you are no longer a JW let me put on my atheist cap and come to the "defense" of another atheist to whom you said the following:

  When I am convinced that you are sincerely looking for such evidence.

  I consider the above quote to be quite revealing of the biased (as in confirmation bias) nature of the thinking that one has to entertain in order to see the weak arguments presented by theists as being valid evidence for their beleifs. You see, the idea of looking for evidence of something already implies that the mind has already developed a bias toward believing in that something. In such a mental state, one will accept faulty reasoning as hard corroborative evidence. A person really should not have to be sincerely looking for evidence of God's existence in order for such evidence to lead to that conclusion - if the evidence really is conclusive evidence. One should never approach truth-finding with a preconcieved conclusion or bias. For a true believer always finds "evidence" to support his belief. Every single one of the conflicting religions on earth can produce beleivers who would cite "evidence" for their particular beliefs. If one has to be sincerely willing to accept a conclusion as true in order to accept the evidence being presented as corroborating the conclusion, then already the rational and objective thinking required to accurately scrutinize the evidence has been compromised. Don't confuse objectively following facts that lead to a conclusion, with subjectively evaluating facts as to corroborate a bias. Atheists have done the former. Theists typically do the latter.

  But welcome to JWN.
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  DesirousOfChange

  Frankly, I doubt you'll see them again as you made the (wrong) assumption that JWs have any real idea of what the doctrine is that they are "teaching". Most couldn't explain even how Christ's ransom sacrifice works or to whom it is granted and who it is not. And don't even think of getting them to explain the Gentile Times or anything deeper. They are just memorizing a couple of paragraphs from the Kingdom Ministry sample presentation. You were confusing them with people who can think.

  I appreciated your comments but was floored by the following quote you made:

  Not too long ago I too was a skeptic. But I found strong evidence that Jesus Christ is indeed the Creator of the universe and the Savior of the world. Maybe I will share it with you sometime. When I am convinced that you are sincerely looking for such evidence. In the meantime I will be mindful of Christ's words, "Do not cast your your pearls before swine or give what is holy to dogs. For if you do they may trample them under their feet and turn aound and tear you to pieces." (Matt. 7:6)

  That's seems pretty damn judgemental. I bet you were a great JW.

  (Some things never change but the label.)

  Doc
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  Christian guy

  Doc,

  I was only quoting the words of Christ who clearly advised his followers not to spend their time discussing sacred things with those who do not appreciate sacred things. He gave that advise for a reason. He indicated that most often such discussions only result in Christians being insulted and attacked.

  Foolishly ignoring Christ's advise on this matter, I have in the past had many long discussions with atheists. Almost every time I have done so I found myself wishing I had heeded his advise. For almost every time I have engaged in a discussion of sacred things with an atheist I discovered that their only reason for talking to me was to try to make all Christians look foolish. I found that no amount of evidence for the existence of the Christian God, no matter how strong, was ever sufficient to help them consider the possibility that the Bible is the word of God. Their minds and hearts were simply not open to that possibility.

  So out of respect for the advise given to me by Christ, and because of my own limited time, I now avoid discussions (i.e. debates) with atheists. I don't think that makes me judgmental. It only makes me a follower of Christ. For he is the one who gave his followers this advise. And from my own experience I have found it to be very good advise.
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  Christian guy

  Island man,

  You wrote: Don't confuse objectively following facts that lead to a conclusion, with subjectively evaluating facts as to corroborate a bias. Atheists have done the former. Theists typically do the latter.

  Really? So you don't believe that many atheists, who by definition have already decided that there is no God, look at the world around them for more evidence to support their preconceived opinion and quickly discount any evidence they might find to the contrary?

  Give me a break.
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  Oubliette

  Christian guy, welcome to the forum.

  Nice job reasoning with the two JWs on your doorstep!

  You really handed their asses to them, scripturally speaking of course!!!

  
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  wasblind

  Christian Guy

  I'm glad you brought out Galatians 1:8, Because Jehovah's Witness

  introduce a " new thought" to the good news . Somethin' that scripture warns against

  Example from the Watch Tower Society :

  If Someone Says____ ' Christains are supposed to be witnesses for Jesus, not jehovah '

  You might reply: ' That's an interesting point you have brought up. And you are right that we do have a responsibility to be witnesses for Jesus. That's why Jesus role in God''s purpose is emphasized in our publications. But here is something that may be a new thought to you...of whom was jesus " The faithful witness " ?______Reasoning book page 208

  Jehovah's Witnesses totally disregard The Authority of the Christ

  .
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  KiddingMe

  Welcome! Great 1st post! Thanks for sharing!