A Manual for Creating Atheists

by Hortensia 52 Replies latest jw friends

  • Hortensia
    Hortensia

    Just received the book, sat down to start reading it. First chapter has definitions:

    Faith:

    1. Belief without knowledge, belief in something without proof.

    2. Pretending to know things you don't know.

    Atheist:

    "There's insufficient evidence to warrant belief in a divine, supernatural creator of the universe. However, if I were shown sufficient evidence to warrant belief in such an entity, then I would believe."

    He doesn't use the word "agnostic," because it's ambiguous.

    Difference between faith and hope:

    Faith makes statements about reality, such as "Jesus walked on water." Hope doesn't do that, it represents wishes or desires, such as "I hope I pass the exam."

    So, not long after I started reading the book a neighbor dropped in. I showed her the book and she laughed. She is a true believer - in just about everything except reality - and thinks I'm a little rascal to claim to be an atheist. I told her the author's definition of faith and she agreed, it's belief in the unknowable was how she put it.

    Then she went on to a long discussion of all the wonderful things the "universe" has done for her, such as saving her life in a car accident. I said it seems a little uneven to me, what about all the thousands of people who die in car accidents? She said, "karma." I said, "so, it's their own fault?" She said, "yes." She said that if good things happened to her, she earned them, and if bad things happened, she needed to learn a lesson, or she was paying back bad karma from a previous life.

    Then she asked me what I get from being an atheist, what does it do for me? I said, "I don't get anything. It is just facing reality and recognizing what it means." She went on for a bit, karma, etc. I said that being an atheist makes me appreciate life more, and makes me more compassionate, because suffering is such a huge part of life for people and animals. I said it makes me realize more and more that I'm part of a group, not the center of the universe, and that all living things desire life and have the right to enjoy it as much as possible without hurting others.

    She finally said I'm just living in the present, which is what the Buddha advocated, and so I'm living a "spiritual" life.

    Oh well, whatever floats your boat. I'm going to practice stuff from the book on her, although I think she is so enveloped in the religious bubble I doubt that I'll get anywhere with her.

    My thought about the idea of karma is that it teaches you it's OK not to feel sorry for people because whatever happens to them is their own fault. A belief Jesus supposedly had, didn't he? Didn't he say, "who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

  • Laika
    Laika

    John 9: As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

    3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

  • Ruby456
    Ruby456

    hortensia

    the problem is that "Jesus walked on water" is not a statement about reality - the person who wrote the book is being a little disingenious, I think. Jesus walking on water is completely outside of reality and is the reason it is termed miraculous.

  • Hortensia
    Hortensia

    I said it wrong. It is a claim about reality, not a statement. Thanks for catching that!

    Thanks for the scripture, too. So it was Jesus's disciples who seemed to believe in a previous life of some sort.

  • Ruby456
    Ruby456

    thanks hortensia. on my part I guess I need to read the book if I want to critique it/agree with it.

  • tec
    tec

    That is not what faith is.

    So the first chapter premise is wrong, and if the arguments are based upon this at all, then they are not going to work on someone WITH faith. Though I do get that some (many?) religious people/believers may also think that number one is the correct definition of faith, like your friend. But no one thinks the second, lol, except for atheists.

    Peace to you,

    tammy

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Dear Tammy, you have probably done this many times before, but could you indulge an old man and post a succinct definition of what you think faith is, and also what is wrong with the definition above, or is it simply too short ?

  • cofty
    cofty

    Thanks Hortensia. Look forward to more updates if you have time.

    Faith = Pretending to know things you don't know.

    Perfect.

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Tec, please don't invent a new meaning for faith, personal to you. That makes the bible invalid to anyone but YOU and YOUR ideas x

    If facts and faith were the same thing there would be no need for two words. Faith is an assured EXPECTATION for things HOPED for.

    Jesus said having faith the size of a mustard grain, this indicates a belief based on inner consideration and inepretation not evidence, I believe the moon exists 100% because of the evidence, mustard grain sized belief ,or any size of faith on the spectrum on belief is irrelevant if it is a KNOWN FACT. It is a contradiction. Jesus was clearly talking about a spectrum, a spectrum of belief dependant on personal reasonings, not evidence.

    Faith the size of a mustard grain in science ,would lead to terrible science if faith = evidence/knowledge. Jesus was clearly saying even if you believe in me a little then that is a lot.... why ? Because it takes a lot of faith to believe in him even a little bit.... WHY ? ????? Because it is illogical and there is no evidence. The people of his time didn't even believe him, they killed him. Before you make excuses why, humans back then were the same as humans now.... if you saw a man healing people, ressurecting people, teaching new ideas, who when died led to a huge storm which destroyed the temple and ALL the dead of Jerusalem came out their tombs and were walking the streets.... Would you still say "probably a hoaxer?"

    It is nonsensical! Hence you gotta have......faith faith faith !

  • Hortensia
    Hortensia

    So, there's the reason it's hard to have a discussion between believers and non-believers: can't agree on a definition. I wonder if we could all agree that faith is belief without evidence? So then, I suppose, there would still be two camps: the believers, and those who want evidence before believing.

    Interesting endnote in Chapter One:

    Pg 40, endnote #12:

    "In his early suras, Muhammad made compromises with popular, preexisting goddess worship; later he revoked these verses -- calling them Satanic verses -- and created a new principle permitting newer revelations to supersede earlier revelations. Thus there is another way to figure out which claims about the world we should accept and which are likely false, though not through reason or evidence. The new principle is based on the latest revelation. Later suras in the Koran supersede earlier suras. Unfortunately many of the more militant suras are found later in the Koran."

    Hmmm, so new light wasn't invented by the wtbts?

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