Bump. For more explanation, what is the difference between faith and trust, and cannot both be misplaced ?
A Manual for Creating Atheists
by Hortensia 52 Replies latest jw friends
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cofty
Tammy has invented a new language where words don't mean what anybody else thinks they do. Does anybody want to play?
"Doxastic Closure" - That's a useful phrase.
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snare&racket
Tec,
You assume I dont know what ASSURED means?
I can be assured that aliens are coming next week to take me away, it isnt KNOWING. This isn't difficult Tec, I don't see why you are arguing it.
If anything you are belittling the concept, you are belittling Faith. Jesus said that he and god valued faith, its value being that it is personal not factual. By saying it is not that you are devaluing your faith! How can faith be a virtue if it is simply accepting evidence? That is science that is logical and it is not a value.
Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."
2 Corinthians 5:7 "We live by faith, not by sight."
Romans 10:17 "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message"
With regard your comment Tec,
" ASSURED EXPECTATION of things HOPED for" is exactly that...someone being sure of something occuring that they HOPE will happen.
Webster's Dictionary faith is "an unquestioning belief that does not require proof or evidence."
We don't need those feelings or words in regard to things we KNOW. We don't hope that the moon exists tommorow....
Hope " To wish for something with expectation of its fulfillment."
Faith is a future tense expresion, a future event you expect but don't know will happen
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Hortensia
faith is believing something for which there is no evidence
People around here have faith in Telos, in Lemurians, in spirit guides. Muslims have faith in Allah and the Koran. What makes your faith right and their faith wrong? They can't all be true. How do you discern which is right? It has to be based on something.
I think it is significant that most people have the religion of their parents, of their culture. Then they believe they are right and everyone else is wrong, although if they had been born to different parents with a different religion, they would probably feel as sure about a totally different religion.
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Hortensia
Snare & Racket: "Webster's Dictionary faith is "an unquestioning belief that does not require proof or evidence.""
Unquestioning, there's the problem!
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tec
Phizzy,
From what I have heard and understand from my Lord regarding faith:
Faith is knowing Christ, and through knowing Christ... knowing also His Father. Our trust and our hope is in Him because we know Him who is true. Faith is knowing with certainty... based upon what is heard from the Spirit. (who is Christ) Christ is the evidence; Christ who lives and speaks... so that (as another who belongs to Christ recently shared from Him) we have been given evidence of the resurrection that we will also have... as Christ and his resurrection is the evident demonstration of the thing we, personally, do not yet behold.
Trust, on its own, may be built upon hope. A guess. Wishful thinking. But it is not necessarily certain, nor does it have to come from the Spirit.
Might our faith and/or trust be misplaced? Yes, unfortunately... when we put our faith that came from the Spirit in men and 'nobles' and even ourselves... instead of remaining in Christ, who is from God, and who is the Spirit. We may then be misled away from Him, toward false christs... some only temporarily, until they hear the voice of their Lord calling them... and some to the detriment of their faith altogether, because those they gave it to wrapped so many lies around Christ that the truth is tainted for them.
Peace to you,
tammy
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tec
Tec,
You assume I dont know what ASSURED means?
I assume you DO know what assured means. I am not sure why some do not focus on that particular word in that hebrews verse. That particular verse does not speak as to WHAT evidence faith is based upon. That verse merely describes faith as KNOWING.
I can be assured that aliens are coming next week to take me away, it isnt KNOWING. This isn't difficult Tec, I don't see why you are arguing it.
Well, of course not. Not unless you have something sure upon which to base your faith upon.
If anything you are belittling the concept, you are belittling Faith. Jesus said that he and god valued faith, its value being that it is personal not factual. By saying it is not that you are devaluing your faith! How can faith be a virtue if it is simply accepting evidence? That is science that is logical and it is not a value.
Yes, faith in Him, and in His Father. Based on hearing Him, and His Father. Not based on nothing at all.
Again, Abraham HEARD. Noah HEARD. Abel HEARD. Peter HEARD.
You even quoted it below, but do not see what you quoted.
Faith comes from hearing the message.
Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."
2 Corinthians 5:7 "We live by faith, not by sight."
Romans 10:17 "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message"
With regard your comment Tec,
" ASSURED EXPECTATION of things HOPED for" is exactly that...someone being sure of something occuring that they HOPE will happen.
ASSURED expectation of things hoped for...
Yes.
But you are reading into this something that is not there... that this assurance... is based on nothing.
Webster's Dictionary faith is "an unquestioning belief that does not require proof or evidence."
Well, unless it is describing blind faith (really blind belief)... then webster's dictionary is wrong. Not surpising... because the defintion is based upon what men THINK faith IS, and faith comes from the Spirit... not from men. I have asked questions many times... I even asked once, if I was making things more difficult than they had to be, regarding life springing randomly or from non-life... or from God.
My Lord answered me, lol. He did not penalize me or say 'away from me'. Or take my faith from me. He answered, and I believed what HE told me.
Before anyone gets into a hubbub about me saying the definition is wrong... remember, that definitions DO change, and until recently, an atheist was one who rejects and/or denies the existence of god(s). Some still say that. But most atheists disagree with that definition as well.
We don't need those feelings or words in regard to things we KNOW. We don't hope that the moon exists tommorow....
I don't "hope" that Christ exists tomorrow either. I know that He does.
Hope " To wish for something with expectation of its fulfillment."
Hope may also mean.. to look forward to something with expectation of its fulfillment, knowing that what you hope for is going to come to pass... because you have evidence for such a thing. You hope... and look forward... because you do not yet have it; but you hope for what you WILL have.
Peace,
tammy
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cofty
Faith is mind rot.
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tec
Well, that doesn't match the dictionary definition either ; )
Peace,
tammy
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Hortensia
I think faith is wishful thinking. I think all of us at one time or another just want to be rescued, and the belief that some invisible deity will do just that someday must be nice. I just don't see how it can be true, in fact I'm certain it isn't true. So, what then? Face the facts, do what you can to live a fulfilling life while not hurting others.
Meanwhile, I'm reading this book about creating atheists and having some interesting thoughts. I find the book interesting and educational. I'm enjoying the information. I just can't see myself doing it very often. I'm like NY44M - for the most part I don't care what people believe, unless they challenge me in which case I tell the truth. However, I think that the more extreme religious folks really cause damage when they are in power. So maybe the book about the religious right taking over the US and what we can do about it would be better for me. First, though, I'll finish this book and share some more tidbits with you.
BTW, after I read the first chapter I read all the appendices in the back, and flipped through reading endnotes. The endnotes for each chapter are great, full of all sorts of information and resources. I think the author could have included much of the endnote material in the chapters without muddling the chapters at all.
Have any of you checked out the link to the Skeptics 101 course? Lots of interesting information in the course outline, and the course evidently deals with developing critical thinking skills in students, whether the subject is religion, snake oil, conspiracies, politics or whatever.