A Manual for Creating Atheists (page 4)

zound

Soapbox moment:

Personally I think anyone promoting faith is a negative force in the world (sorry Tec - nothing personal)

If someone (especially children) are taught that believing something without evidence is a GOOD thing - a noble thing even - a thing to strive for, then they are being set up to fall.

When some destructive group knock on their door (the JW's for example) and say "here, believe this - don't ask questions, just have faith" - the person has already been taught that faith is a GOOD thing and are more at risk of joining such a group - or wasting their time believing in something that just isn't true.

Therefore I have a problem with anyone who is preaching from a POSITION OF FAITH. If you belieive something without evidence, no problem. As soon as you start promoting your mindset as a good thing to others - PROBLEM.

Most people of faith don't see the harm they are doing - BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY ARE RIGHT - therefore the ends justifies the means. The other people that AREN'T RIGHT are the ones doing harm. Have faith now, they say, the evidence will be apparent in the next life (or when Jesus comes or whatever).

People who speak from a position of faith but claim to have evidence is another matter (hint: annecdotes aren't evidence)

It's up to people of reason to counter this harm that is being done and help children and ignorant people to use reason and evidence when making decisions, and not the falsity riddled dialogue such Tec uses (again, nothing personal Tammy - just expressing myself).

No matter how elquent or charming a person of faith can be - if they are promoting the fact that having faith is a great thing (doesn't even have to be preaching - just condoning) then they are promoting a very harmful thought process that can completely screw up a persons life.

Obviously myself after having gone through the mill am now in a position that I can rationally see this and have a discussion with a person of faith with no risk of believing their bull****. But it irks me to no end when I see these same perfectly nice people turn around and promote "Faith" as a good thing to their children, who are not equipped through experience like I am to see it for what it is.

End soapbox moment.

Hortensia

I agree.

tec

I am sorry for not answering your questions, Zound. I think I answered them above... but if something is still unclear, please ask me to clarify.

Might I add that I have stated that faith is based on evidence...it is not blind... what others state (including myself), from Christ or from themselves or from religion or from the bible... SHOULD be tested. Always. Against Christ, against love, against what is written (beginning with Christ... since He is the one God said, even in that book, to listen TO... so even according to that book, Christ is the authority)

Peace,

tammy

Hortensia

Tammy, other people feel as strongly as you do about their faith, only their faith is in Allah or Krishna or spirit guides, whatever. How can you prove that your faith is right and theirs is wrong? They can't all be right, with all the conflicting doctrines.

zound

Thanks Tammy.

Again, my comments weren't meant to be personal - just stating my view.

What evidence are you basing your faith on? (Please don't say the historical accuracy of the bible)

zound

Maybe a better question would be - how do I (an atheist) become like you (a believer in christ).

What evidence would I have to view, and what steps would I have to take - and how do I deal with evidence to the contrary.

What is your "Manual for Creating Theists"?

tec

Tammy, other people feel as strongly as you do about their faith, only their faith is in Allah or Krishna or spirit guides, whatever. How can you prove that your faith is right and theirs is wrong? They can't all be right, with all the conflicting doctrines.

You're right... they cannot all be right. And I, myself, cannot prove it to you. Me or anyone else 'feeling strongly' proves nothing (atheists also feel strongly that there is no God, despite the protests that comment is sure to receive) I can witness to the truth from what Christ has shown/taught me. But what others do with that is up to them. Some hear... such as his sheep... and some do not (for various reasons; some because they are not His sheep; some becaues they are currently listening to others; some because their leaders and/or forefathers have taught them something else, and that voice interferes with His).

Only Christ... who is the Truth... can prove what is true and what is false.

His call to come to Him is to anyone who wishes; anyone who seeks; anyone who thirsts.

I can only witness that He is true. That He does speak. That He is alive. I mean... that is how I know.

What evidence are you basing your faith on? (Please don't say the historical accuracy of the bible)

Christ, who is the Spirit. The one who lives... and so speaks. Not through the pages of the bible as some speak... but from the Spirit. The same Spirit who spoke to Paul, or to Peter, or who sent Philip to the Ethiopian, or to Cornelius to Peter, etc.

I did learn about Him from word of mouth, witness accounts from others, written accounts from the bible. Same as you might learn about anyone from history, or even a famous person today. But to know them, personally, you go to them. Right?

Peace,

tammy

zound

What evidence are you basing your faith on? Christ, who is the Spirit.

Okay so you don't have evidence - unless you dramatically redefine the the word 'evidence' just as you did with 'faith'.

You are speaking from a position of faith - Refer to my soapbox post above.

I can witness to the truth from what Christ has shown/taught me. But what others do with that is up to them.

This is kind of what I was talking about. "I can encourage people to have faith and just believe - I can show that it works wonders for me - but what others do with that is up to them."

So condone faith and even encourage it to others, and then in their susceptable mind frame if they then believe JW's, Scientologists, Mormons, Jim Jones, Catholics etc etc "What others do with that is up to them."

Nice.

zound

(atheists also feel strongly that there is no God, despite the protests that comment is sure to receive)

Atheist's don't "feel" there is no God. I don't feel like expounding on this right now, considering I think you full well know what my response would be.

(apologies - I'm in a bad mood today)

zound

Some hear... such as his sheep... and some do not (for various reasons; some because they are not His sheep; some becaues they are currently listening to others; some because their leaders and/or forefathers have taught them something else, and that voice interferes with His)

So jesus voice isn't strong enough to overcome the voices of those who "interfere" with his?

Those who are NOT his sheep - that sounds like predestination - would that be accurate?

A Manual for Creating Atheists

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