I Am No Longer an Atheist

by OnTheWayOut 171 Replies latest members adult

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Kate Wild: "...are you open to a explaination should you get a satisfying one?"

    Sure. I have heard the spin on many of these, but not a satisfactory answer. I would especially like an answer to this:

    Where was God when innocent children died (or horribly suffered) in the 2004 tsunami and the 2010 Haiti earthquake?

    There is great spin on this- God was saving their souls, God didn't cause it, the things that go wrong on earth are testing grounds for our courage, charity, hope, trust, etc. It goes so far as to suggest that were God to prevent such disasters, humans might as well be protected from everything and be "Stepford" beings. Another suggested that men choose to live there and take all the blame, as if the children had a choice (and ignoring the reality that many of the men would not be able to up and move to a safer country).

    I don't go so far (in this context) as to suggest that God prevent all bad things from happening to humans. I don't want to discuss free will and how far God should go to help us. BUT- a humongous disasters where tens of thousands of children died, and God could have simply caused the disaster to not happen.

    This thread is not a debate about that question, but I know it will probably become one. Really, stick to saying what you think and don't insist on answers from others.

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    I describe myself as a 'hard atheist', as I feel I can make the case of disproving God's existence, simply using the Bible itself (although there's also mounds of evidence from the World of science which supports the claim, too).-adam

    I don't believe the Bible is from God. Shrodingers Wave equation leaves gaps that only God fills IMO. You have had a go at proving God does not exist with me I am still not satisfied.

    Explain to me, without links....if you will, why atoms decided by themseves they needed to vibrate. Shrodingers Wave equation explains why and how they vibrate, but not how it all came about. We just know they do. We accept it.

    Kate xx

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    I describe myself as a 'hard atheist', as I feel I can make the case of disproving God's existence, simply using the Bible itself (although there's also mounds of evidence from the World of science which supports the claim, too).

    You can, to your satisfaction, prove that the God of that Book does not exist. Be careful beyond that, as Bible-believing is actually in the minority on planet Earth.

  • adamah
    adamah

    Kate said-

    It is fair to say intellectual intimidation is a dogmatic approach. I have never met anyone with a high IQ who denies evolution, however I have had contact with dogmatic evolutionists who have a low IQ. Have you?

    Sure, but that's because religions have no monopoly on dogmatic believers. Some atheists aren't rational, and simply don't believe in God since they don't WANT God(s) to exist; they're the flip-side of those who believe in God driven only by their desire for a God to exist. BOTH are weak-minded and irrational, since neither can point to discernable and testable EVIDENCE for WHY they believe as they do.

    I really don't care WHAT someone concludes, theist or atheist alike, but instead I care about if they can cogently explain what evidence they used to ARRIVE at that conclusion, since the conclusion that's not supposed by evidence is simply an opinion.

    Adam

  • DeWandelaar
    DeWandelaar

    OTWO ... what are you exactly trying to say? There are a lot of people that do not follow ANY religion and are not theists.

    It does not mean they do not believe in a Godbeing though... I think I can conscider myself as a deist: a person that believes someone is there but not in a way we can imagine. And why should he explain himself anyways? If he just created the universe and started the whole creation thing he can do whatever he wants. He does not have to explain anything. We have been teaching people he does explain himself... by using old scriptures... hellooooo it is all human stuff made up. The whole "god looks like this" thing has been created by mankind... not by him I guess! Would he let himself look like an ass as illustrated in the scriptures? I do not think so!

    I personally think he created the universe... started it all up and sees it developing. We are just a very very very small part of a very very very big and expanding universe. Do you really think that our sorry asses matter? Just look at the animals. They live peacefully but yet they kill eachother for food and keeping the species alive. Why is there no difference to "hate" and "love" with these animals? Why should there be goodness without evil? I do not even think it exists. Dark and light, water and fire... all opposites but not bad in itself.

    So why should he explain? There are loving people and hatefull people... just like a shitload of other bad shit in the universe.

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    -

    There’s a burden of proof for those asserting there is no god of the universe.

    There’s a burden of proof for those asserting there is a god of the universe.

    I haven’t seen either of these burdens of proof met to the exclusion of the other, and doubt it’ll happen in my lifetime.

    On the other hand, individuals who assert the god of the Bible exists have, in my view, a far more difficult burden of proof because this assertion is of something very specific. All the questions posed by OnTheWayOut arise, plus a whole lot more.

    As an aside, and in response to grandiose ideas of majesty and harmony in the universe:

    - The universe is not a ballet of co-existing matter.

    - The universe is a destructive environment.

    - Matter of our universe is in a constant state of decomposition.

    Marvin Shilmer

  • adamah
    adamah

    OTWO said-

    You can, to your satisfaction, prove that the God of that Book does not exist. Be careful beyond that, as Bible-believing is actually in the minority on planet Earth.

    Well, the Torah covers the big-three Abrahamic faiths, since they're all outgrowths of the OT. Living in a region of the World where they predominate, I'm willing to rely on Pascal's Wager counter-arguments, in case the "real" God actually is the Hindu-God Ganesha:

    (And being a member of the JWN peanut gallery, I'll remember to bring a pocketful of peanuts along to make up for lost time! Pachyderms are intelligent, and Pascal made a mistake by assuming that all Gods unreasonably demand exclusive devotion like angry Jehovah on Judgment Day, EVEN IF you lived on the 'wrong' side of the Planet.)

    No doubt Ganesha would be aware of the vast hard evidence from sociology and anthropology which shows ALL humans have the same basic need to create God concepts in their cultures, due to the brain's search for explanations and putting two and two together, even when the hypothesis doesn't make sense. Seems like a valid reason, and I'm willing to stake my "soul" (which hasn't been proven to exist, BTW) on it.

    But back to the main point, I think I can convince anyone who's rational and has the self-awareness and intellectual honesty to discriminate between their desires (what they WANT to be true) and what the evidence actually supports. That's a tough threshold, though, since the far-majority of humans don't decide ONLY on evidence, but allow their emotions and feelings to control their decision-making. It's a well-known phenomena: delusion, i.e. looking for a means to justify ignoring counter-evidence. JWs contain a high-percentage of such individuals.

    Adam

  • adamah
    adamah

    KATE said- I don't believe the Bible is from God. Shrodingers Wave equation leaves gaps that only God fills IMO. You have had a go at proving God does not exist with me I am still not satisfied.

    So you don't believe in the Bible; can you explain exactly where you got your conception of God from, then?

    In Western Culture, most people get their introduction to the concept of God from their environment (siblings, etc), and whether you admit or or even realize it or not, you cannot ignore the cultural influence of an Abrahamic God of the Bible, AKA Jehovah.

    Granted, some will want to alter the God hypothesis in their mind to turn that into some amorphous and nebulous deity who exists just beyond our plain of existence in order to explain it's indetectability, but that's just a mental game some play to justify a way of making a deity in OUR image. It's actually mental masturbation, as it makes the person feel good, but it's not effecting reality outside of their own brains.

    KATE said- Explain to me, without links....if you will, why atoms decided by themseves they needed to vibrate. Shrodingers Wave equation explains why and how they vibrate, but not how it all came about. We just know they do. We accept it.

    You might as well ask why a rock needs a reason to exist?

    It seems to me you're still trying to project your preconceptions on the World around you, which is a fundamental human trait, yes, but it's pointless. You're only imploring a "God of the gaps" argument (again), and that's fine (as long as you recognize it for what it is), but realize that time wasted filling gaps with answers that don't actually ANSWER the question (by not actually explaining anything) is time spent not learning about what is KNOWN.

    The Universe doesn't owe you or I an explanation as to why it's here, and thinking that it DOES is a collosal waste of time vs starting to learn ABOUT it, and seeing what answers it DOES provide.

    EDIT- ON THIS:

    Kate said-

    It is fair to say intellectual intimidation is a dogmatic approach. I have never met anyone with a high IQ who denies evolution, however I have had contact with dogmatic evolutionists who have a low IQ. Have you?

    BTW, dogmatism is NOT linked to IQ, unfortunately. Some of the lowest IQ individuals are also the least skeptical (most gullible, and hence hop between religions since they cannot dogmatically commit to a belief), whereas some of the most dogmatic types have high IQs, but they've allowed their egos to control their decision-making processes such that they dogmatically reject counter-evidence without evaulating it, since they've concluded they cannot be wrong (and are not open-minded to consider alternatives).

    Adam

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    DeWandelaar, I suppose I have no argument with you. What I am really saying is that I have thoughts to share when people claim that there is an all-powerful, always beneficial "God" out there.

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    looking for a means to justify ignoring counter-evidence.-adam

    IMO I am not ignoring counter evidence that atoms decided for themselves they needed to vibrate and rotate in a certian way. sometimes there is no counter evidence adam-Kate xx

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