BTW, the reason I refuse to answer you question is you've repeatedly ignored it so far, in many other threads: why should I waste my breath again, since protecting your faith requires you to put on blinders?
No, that is not the truth, Adamah. Because you say the same things over and over again on every other matter. You have no problem repeating your information on 'hearing voices', or even responding to me on every other matter on this and any other thread that is about faith. I believe I asked you to answer directly. Not only that but I asked you to please cite for me where Christ said the 'bible' as written is perfect, since you did use that particular reference to attempt to make me stop talking, or doubt what I was saying. It just backfired because I know that my Lord never said that... and it is not written.
Reread this thread (and the prior ones on faith). It was answered repeatedly in those.
So were all of the questions that you have asked me, but I have still answered them. And you have still written long posts on every other matter, BUT, on the two matters I asked you specifically about.
TEC SAID- Adamah... you fight against blind faith; or faith in men. I do the same thing.
You completely ignore the example of Rahab (given in Hebrews 11:31), the prostitute in the town of Jericho, who had to put her faith in the men (the Hebrew spies) who told her to hang a red fabric from her window to be saved. She heard no voice from heaven saying, "Rahab! I will save you IF you put a red cloth out your window!". She put her faith in the men, the spies, who promised her salvation and were supposedly relaying the Will of Jehovah.
Well, lets see if you know this account as well as you think you do, then. Because i have ignored nothing.
Because it is not her havng hung a red cloth... but her having taken in the spies, hidden and protected them, lying to her own people to keep them safe, her knowing that they were from God Most High and that this was their land... that was from faith. Sure, the cloth in the window was putting faith in the men's promise. But her protecting them because they were from Jahveh, was Rahab showing her faith in the Most Holy One of Israel.
You also ignore the mention of the name of Jephthah, who asked God for assistance in prayer to help him conquer the Ammonites, and even made a foolish vow to offer the first living thing to emerge from his house, if victory was given to him by God.
There's no mention of his hearing the voice of God ordering him to fight against the enemy, or directing him to offer his daughter as a burnt offering, but Jephthah fought the battle on faith, and even fulfilled his hastily-made vow on faith, since he clearly feared the consequences of NOT keeping his vow to God. Jephthah's daughter was another victim of FAITH.
I am not sure what about Jephthah that Paul was speaking of, except that it is written that the Spirit of Jahveh came upon Jephthah... and directed him where to go. Jephthah went. But as for his daughter... even if she was killed (and I am not convinced that she was)... she was a victim of her father's rash vow. He made that vow on his own, and no one (including God) asked him to do such a thing, or made him do such a thing.
See, that's how the building of faith is carried out: a convert to Xianity starts by reading of the accounts in the OT (which is exactly WHY Paul offers these examples of men of faith). Slowly that trust is transferred to those who claim to speak as the servants of God (be it the Governing Body, or Jim Jones, or the Pope). Same schtick, just a different flavor of it.
No, Adamah, I am sorry. But no. One does not begin by becoming a Christian by reading the accounts of the OT. If that were the case, then all of the Jews (Paul included) would have believed in Christ. But only a small portion of them did. Why? If it came merely upon what is read and could be transferred... why did all not hear the TRUTH, of Christ?
Faith is given to those who seek and want to know Christ and God. Certainly witness accounts help others to be built UP in their faith (faith that they already have in Christ), as you said. But faith itself is built upon Christ, upon what is heard, and as God draws them to His Son... else it is just faith in someone else. Our testimony may make someone want to know Christ; may even get someone to consider that they COULD know Christ, and so take a step or two toward Him, perhaps begin to seek Him. But it is not in the power of any witness to make another believe in Christ; no one comes to the Son unless the Father enables them. And what does Christ say about that?
"Seek and you will find. Knock, and the door will be opened."
In Hebrews, Paul gives examples of faith, following his definition. Something that people often do... give a definition; then give examples. He even says, after he speaks about the great cloud of witnesses... "Let us fix our eyes on [Jesus], the author and perfecter of our faith.'
Not Moses and the other examples as authors and perfecters of our faith... but Christ.
But in all cases, it starts out by believing in God and Jesus, and inevitably the faith is transferred to mortal men who contol the faithful like marionettes on a string. It's the oldest scam in the book, but so believers few see it (or they DO see it, but it's an unwritten rule that to speak against faith is like telling a classful of kindergarteners that Santa isn't real: the person who does it is looked at like the Grinch who stole XMas).
It does happen like that FAR, FAR too often, I totally agree with you. But it is not MEANT to, according to the will of God. Christ NEVER said to put your faith in men... or in anyone other than Him, and God. Unfortunately, men (wolves; those who belong to THEIR father, even unknowingly) have used the hope and seeking of others as a scam, to lure them away from Chrsit and to them instead. And they have succeeded far too often, either by luring men to them instead of pointing to Christ... or destroying the faith of those who gave it to them instead, who then realized that they were false. (note though, that one must give their faith to these men... really, the harlot... who then destroy their faith)
That is religion, and even though so many in religion are SINCERE believers, and even if those at the 'heads' of those religions are SINCERE believers... sincerity is not a synonym for truth.
And too many WANT to walk by sight and not by faith. Because you are mistaken if you think that men in religion are walking by faith. There is too much to SEE for that to be true. They want to walk by sight. The art, the buildings, the 'heads and fathers/popes, priests, bishops, etc; the doctrines, the written word, the rituals, the traditions, someone else telling them what to study, what to reflect upon this week, etc, etc.
Sight.
One who walks by faith, walks by the Spirit... and is not led by man, but by the Spirit. Goes where the Spirit tells him to go. Does what the Spirit tells him to do.
One who walks by religion, walks by sight, walks by what man has decided, walks by the doctrines and traditions of men. Goes where man tells him to go. Does what man tells him to do.
Unfortunately, there's many believers who allow their own selfish desires to blind them to the dangers of faith,
Which desires are those, love?
of believing in a fantasy, which is down-right deadly to some individuals who are eg struggling with mental health issues, and already have enough trouble discerning reality from make-believe where adding demons to the mix is downright toxic.
Believing in a fantasy might be dangerous, depending upon the fantasy. But that is YOUR word for faith, and not the truth.
But I forgot: it's all about YOU, right?
You forget a lot, Adamah, including this:
NONE of it is about me. It is about Christ. It is about Truth. It is about fighting lies that have blocked people from coming to Him, if they are wishing and thirsting and seeking.
TEC SAID- There is nothing dangerous about faith in Christ. If you are listening to HIM, EVEN if that means beginning with what He is WRITTEN to have said and done. But if you start listening to men... well then, you get the jws, for example. You get shunning. You get religion. You get suicides and wars and torture and executins, fought and done in the name of God... but all LIES.
Let me guess: those are not TRUE Xians, right?
Christ DOES have people in 'her' (the harlot)... else HE could not say, "Come out of her... MY PEOPLE!"
Some will hear and follow His voice OUT... of the one who has misled them from him.
But Let me ask you something. If there are false christs... as my Lord said... then would not those who follow false christs be false christians?
See, that's the problem: if you share the same belief in God and Jesus as the other Xians, then you also share some of the blame for the actions they do in their names.
First... not everyone who calls themselves a christian IS a christian. There ARE false christians, following false christs. Even CHRIST said that... to those who thought they belonged to Him... "Away from me, you evildoers... I NEVER knew you."
Second... I know of no one who goes by the name Xian. Christian, yes. But not your X version of the world. Some might think that is semantics, but there are those out there who use that version of the word for a reason, or to belittle the word and the person who professes to be a Christian.
Third... you do not share in their sins if you do not go along with their sin; if you speak out against what is false, and instead speak as to what is TRUE.
Unfortunately, too many men agree with you... and it does not (and will not in the future) matter what kind of a person someone was or what they did, or if someone was a true Christian or false Christian. This is also why Christ says, "Come out of her, MY PEOPLE... so that you do NOT share in her sins."
Otherwise, you're citing the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, and each group points at the others and makes the same defense; then no one can be held accountable for the damaging effects of faith.
It is not a 'no true scotsman' fallacy, if someone truly was not a Christian. (annointed by holy spirit, belonging to Christ)
And regardless of what people CLAIM... you can test their actions against Christ and His teachings/example.
But the fact is, since you share the profession of faith as a virtue, you share in their crimes.
See above, but i will ask you, "Do do you share in the crimes of all those who fight against faith (and people OF faith)?
Peace,
tammy
