Knowledge by Proxy

by braincleaned 141 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry

    Your premise I cannot accept.

    The homo sapien (sapient man) acquires knowledge by means of 5 human senses, extracting and identifying and collating.

    Synthesis is the difficult part. Bringing things together or separating them for logical cause can be tricky.

    In the history of mankind, better survival came when learning was passed along so that trial and error was no longer the only

    way to learn.

    Society is made necessary by the need for more information than we can acquire by direct experience and inferential abstractions.

    Until the formalizing and standardizing of written language--can you imagine how unreliable "information" from word-of-mouth others turned

    out to be?

    The earliest epic is attributed to HOMER, I believe, and it is largely admitted The Odyssey is a core story enlarged by decades and centuries of accretions in re-telling.

    The same could be said of the Bible. Certainly the New Testament is layers upon layer of different POV's stitched and tampered into a pseudo-unity.

    The NT easily proves and disproves, for example, the Trinity doctrine since it represents both beliefs simultaneiously (due to the disparate sourcing.)

    _______________

    ____________

    We absorb most of our FALSE INFORMATION through indirect or ambient exposure to the opinions of others, I have to agree.

    Our job is to distinguish true from untrue by disambiguation, testing, logic and skepticism.

  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome

    braincleaned i quoted what the book says valid or invalid i could quote a line from one of harry potter's books if we were talking about harry potter we are talking about christianity and christianity uses the bible.

    i'm saying that for me evidence in my life is sufficient for my faith.

  • braincleaned
    braincleaned

    Fair enough, Tec & Ucantnome. I was just refering the definition given by Paul.
    I cannot argue against your definition — nor Christ for that matter, since I do not believe he is who you say he is.

    That's okay. We differ.

  • tec
    tec

    Tec, could you please tell us what that evidence was? And how did you question/examine it — and against what?

    Whatever is presented. Such as the christ-myth claims, stating that Christ was just a copy-cat... which were false. I examined those by tracking the sources of the information to find out what was true and what was not, and by going to independent sources (no horse in the race) regarding the supposed other 'god-men'. (in quotes because that is their term and not my own)

    What other evidence is there? There are arguments... like the question of evil... which I went to my Lord to ask about and understand. But evidence... not so much.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • tec
    tec

    Fair enough, Tec. I was just refering the definition given by Paul.

    Yes, I understand, but so was I. Have you read that entire chapter in Hebrews? Where Paul goes on to talk about the men of faith... praising them hearing, and obeying?

    I'm not trying to argue with you or anything and it is okay that we disagree... I am just trying to help you see the meaning of that verse.

    Because what you see in that verse is definitely the preferred 'atheist' meaning ; ), and maybe that colors your glasses just a bit?

    Peace to you,

    tammy

  • braincleaned
    braincleaned

    Again, we differ. All of us, like me, are prone to confirmation bias. I do fight it, and have successfully done so in the past. But I'm always on the lookout that I don't follow my new bias.

    We are the only ones to know if we are honest about it or not. Nobody can judge another of not being sincere.

    It does baffle me that I lived most of my life based on non-evidence other than a big religious and emotional gut feeling, refusing any evidence against it.

  • braincleaned
    braincleaned

    Tec, I am one of those that really did deep in my Bible reading. I never take a scripture our of context. Ever... just sayin'
    It's my deep study of the scriptures that made me the atheist I am today. And it cost me dearly to accept reality.
    I paid my dues... trust me. I bare the scars.

    My glasses are not rosy anymore — I was hit by the grace of Reason.

  • tec
    tec

    Okay... so some of the examples of faith that Paul gave:

    Did Noah build an ark based on a hope? Or upon what God told him?

    Did Abraham leave his father's land based on a hope? Did Abraham believe Isaac would be borne to him based on a hope? Or upon what God told him?

    These are examples of the definition that Paul gave, so that we can see more clearly what he is speaking about.

    Noah had faith (assurance) that he would be saved from the coming flood (a reality he had not yet seen, but that he could place his hope IN); based upon what God told him. (based upon what He heard; that being the evidence) That faith allowed Noah TO build the ark (because he believed, based on what he heard), and so his faith saved him and his entire family from the flood.

    Abraham had faith in the promises God made him... even though he did not SEE those things... he heard, and believed the one who spoke to him; and obeyed. He knew that God would deliver on all of his promises, and God always DID.

    Peace to you!

    tammy (getting ready for work now, so will talk more later!)

  • adamah
    adamah

    Braincleaned said- Russell was not saying it was impossible — he meant it was impossible for him!
    The context reveals the tone and intent of this quote.

    Yeah, which is exactly what I pointed out in my post, when I said he bailed himself out at the last moment.

    Braincleaned said- And yes, the latter is called "rationalization" — something he didn't subscribe to either.

    Well of course he didn't subscribe to it: I don't think you'd find anyone who would recommend it, much less be able recognize when they're engaging in rationalizations! But the fact remains that people do use post-hoc rationalizations, whether intentionally or not, or consciously or not.

    On a related point, as far as the definition of faith, even after tearing apart Hebrews 11 to explain it, TEC has dogmatically stuck to her odd interpretation in claiming it relies on perceivable evidence. I've beaten my head against that wall in this thread trying to explain it:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/260964/1/Question-regarding-Faith-adamah#.UnlWuiTQFLc

    The main point of Hebrews 11:1 to realize that the first part of the definition found in the scripture focuses on what faith provides to others who see the acts of the one who has faith, and the second part focuses on how faith operates within the individual.

    Many translations gloss over that conceptual distinction, or often mix them up.

    So the first part that the NWT translates as, "faith IS the assured expectation of things hoped for" refers to the promise, or even 'promissory note' (Greek word is 'hupostasis', lit. a 'title deed', the tangible paper deed which is a SYMBOL of the buyer's ownership and right to inhabit a piece of land which can be presented to others to prove their claim). In Paul's use, this part is referring to the demonstration of faith that a Xian martyr might display to the rest of the World, eg convincing the ungodly to become followers of Christ by their example and willingness to die in the name of their God. This is the ACTIONS shown BY a faithful person.

    The second part ("the evidence of realities not yet beheld") is referring to the role of faith plays in the individual, by supporting their belief in the PROMISE as yet unseen and unexperienced by them (eg the Heavenly hope, or even belief in the existence of God or Jesus, since they haven't YET experienced it with their own sensory organs).

    TEC consistently misses that distinction, and expects everyone to accept that her personal experience of perceiving the voice of Jesus supports her internal faith, when faith is actually defined by Paul as belief DEVOID of any sensory or perceivable input or evidence, and is even belief DESPITE being presented with perceivable evidence to the contrary! Never mind Jesus' refusing to perform miracles (AKA signs) since it was ineffective at building faith: she sticks to her novel concept of Jesus giving her a personal auditorium as building her FAITH.

    In that kind of belief system, to an external observer, 'faith' actually IS indistinguishable from 'dogma', so believers might as well use 'faith' as if it were a synonym.

    Adam

  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome

    brainedcleaned i viewed what paul said differently up to recently it wasn't tec that changed my view.

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