Calling all materialists and non-materialists

by willmarite 69 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • adamah
    adamah

    Bohm said-It would seem that to disagree with hawkins, you would need to disagree with the last sentence; that our brain operate through the laws of nature. Certainly that is not the case?`But if so, what is left to "strongly disagree" with?

    I disagreed with the words that followed, since Hawking seemed to conclude that the brain's being dependent on complex processes implies that we cannot have free will; I'd argue just the opposite, that even if we fully understand the complex processes at play inside our brains, it doesn't imply that we'd ever be able to CONTROL it, simply due to our inability to alter our perspective and overcome our biases (being trapped inside our brains).

    And really, how would that be any different from saying that we DO have free will? We are custodians of our brains, caretakers, gardeners of the mind. We alter our brain function constantly, eg via drinking alcohol. Isn't the whole point of why we prohibit DUI, so people known NOT get too drunk, and already make plans BEFORE drinking so they don't drink and drive?

    Adam

  • bohm
    bohm

    Adamah: but hawkins talk about free will according to the common intuition it is agency outside our minds... (Look at the quote).

    how does our inability to control our brain give us free will? lets take a computer, a computer operate by its laws (program) and is unable to choose how to manipulate it. It seems it is exactly that inability that lead us to conclude a computer does not have free (as in outside agency) will, and hawkins point out thats very much how the brain seem to operate according to what we know.

  • adamah
    adamah

    Willmarite said-

    The human ego has a need to feel special. As you say JWs as well as many others need to feel special that they are God's "special people". Perhaps others feel they're special because they feel they are more logical than others. Perhaps others feel special because of financial success. In other words nobody is immune to the belief that they are cut above everyone else and others "just don't get it".

    Sure, but that only leads to the next question, which one truly is special?

    A JW elder who washes windows may call himself a 'spiritual surgeon' and place himself on par with MDs, but do you want him to treat you in the ER, or operate on you when you need a quadruple bypass? Obviously not: you want someone who's PROVEN himself capable and has tons of experience, having successfully treated other patients.

    Someone's desire to feel special doesn't automatically make anyone entitled to treat them as if they ARE special, for if everyone who want to be a rich and famous rock/movie star were actually famous, then we'd have alot of mediocre entertainers (which we DO, so maybe that's not the best example, LOL)!

    In most societies, though, we reward those who actually can "walk the talk" who've shown an aptitude for learning, and who've sacrificed years of their own lives in diligent study in learning to provide special services that not everyone can do, whether famous musicians or unknown providers. Heck, a plumber (or window washer) should be competent at what they do, since why would you want a tradesmen who is only going to do a poor job?

    Bohm said- but hawkins talk about free will according to the common intuition it is agency outside our minds... (Look at the quote).

    For the record, Profs. Stephen Hawking and Richard Dawkins both have similar last names, and are often confused for the other, even though they are separate people. You're creating a hybrid with that spelling.

    The problem with using a term like 'free will' is it has different meanings in philosophical vs theological discussions. In this thread, the term was introduced by Willmarite in reference to the theological meaning (as indicated by the vacuum of purpose which remains when believers lose a future promise of a Paradise Earth, and encountered when learning of the philosophies of Russell or Harris).

    Bohm said- how does our inability to control our brain give us free will?

    Perhaps it would've been more accurate to say that we all should strive to maximize our sense of free will, i.e. the sense of being in control of our lives. Whether we actually have it or not is a moot point, as long as we strive for it.

    I'm thinking of the sniper who climbed to the top of the Univ of Texas in the 1960's, and started shooting people (he was later killed by Poice). The question everyone asked was, how could this individual, an ex-Boy Scout troop leader, do this?

    Upon autopsy, a tumor was found in his brain near an area known to be associated with strong emotions like rage; if he had been alive, that finding likely would've been seen as a mitigating factor and taken into consideration in his trial. But the question remains: did he have free will? Could he have fought off those urges?

    Who knows? Worst case scenario would say NO, he was completely overpowered by his urges and HAD to kill.

    That's why I say that within limits, all we can do is only to strive to exercise and maximize our sense of free will, remembering that as the Bible says, "unforesceen circumstances befall all", which is another way of saying that life is unpredictable, and that's what makes it so surprising! You never know what's going to happen next, whether good OR bad. In his case, he was dealt an unfortunate situation which no one could overcome. But the fact that could happen to us doesn't mean we should curl up into a ball and die now, just in case we might get such a tumor, right?

    That's crazy, as you pay your money, and you take your chances....

    I'd say that the inability to deal emotionally with the unknown is the same driving force that explains why many people turn to religions like the JWs, in the first place: they're starved and primed to receive the comforting message of assurance by believing in all these great promises, and cannot handle the prospect of realizing it may NOT be "The Truth", and do everything to run from uncertainty. Hence they end up running from one cult to another.

    Instead, it's better to learn to embrace and accept the unknown, and, to paraphrase the old line from AA, "strive to change the things in life you can, don't sweat over that which you cannot control, and learn to discern between the two".

    Or to hijack a line from Winston Churchill, understand that "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself".

    Adam

  • bohm
    bohm

    adamah:

    I am aware free will does not have a clear definition, but i still cant see what you think Hawking is so mistaken about. You seemed to claim in the last thread our lack of ability to control our brain somehow give us free will, and this was related to how Hawkings was mistaken; You mentioned Heisenbergs uncertainty principle, but since uncertainty is ingrained in physical laws, and what Hawkings claimed was physical laws determine how our brains work, I just dont think its a very clear argument. I asked you:

    Bohm: how does our inability to control our brain give us free will?

    Adamah: Perhaps it would've been more accurate to say that we all should strive to maximize our sense of free will, i.e. the sense of being in control of our lives. Whether we actually have it or not is a moot point, as long as we strive for it.

    But this is the non-sequitor fallacy. what you believe we are supposed to do is clearly unrelated to if our brain (and thoughts) are in fact determined by physical law, which is what Hawkings is talking about, and it is unrelated to the question if this is in conflict with what people normally associate with free will.

  • adamah
    adamah

    Bohm said-

    You seemed to claim in the last thread our lack of ability to control our brain somehow give us free will, and this was related to how Hawkings was mistaken; You mentioned Heisenbergs uncertainty principle, but since uncertainty is ingrained in physical laws, and what Hawkings claimed was physical laws determine how our brains work, I just dont think its a very clear argument.

    I was referring to free will in the theological sense (i.e. without an omniscient God who's pulling the levers, since knowing the future requires pre-destiny needed to know even the minor details of our lives (eg the hairs that grow on our head, the time when we'll die, etc).

    I was suggesting that seeming randomness and unpredictability which is unavoidable (per Heisenberg) is what may lead to the appearance of free will, if not the reality of it.

    But let's try it this way, starting over (the part in red below being Hawking's conclusion which, if true, is iffy, and which Hawking wrote cautiously as if he realized it was tenuous as it is unsupported by evidence).

    Stephen Hawking writes in his book The Grand Design:

    "Though we feel that we can choose what we do, our understanding of the molecular basis of biology shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets. Recent experiments in neuroscience support the view that it is our physical brain, following the known laws of science, that determines our actions, and not some agency that exists outside those laws. For example, a study of patients undergoing awake brain surgery found that by electrically stimulating the appropriate regions of the brain, one could create in the patient the desire to move the hand, arm, or foot, or to move the lips and talk. It is hard to imagine how free will can operate if our behavior is determined by physical law, so it seems that we are no more than biological machines and that free will is just an illusion."

    Hawking is implying that behavior(s) being determined by physical laws means that even if we are eventually able to discern where that 'spark' comes from, we will not be able to control it, and hence are at the mercy of this mysterious force within: that's what the phrases 'biological machines' and 'the illusion of free will' implies: 'lacking free will', being at the mercy of something beyond our control (whether a God, or our own brains; I offered the example of a tumor to show how things can go awry, and make that the case for some individuals, but that's the exception, and not likely the rule).

    The study Hawking cites is an example of a neuroscientist deciding to trigger a specific neuron in the brain with an electrical probe in the brain of the patient to create a specific desire for the patient to say, move his hand; that's NOT 'free will', but simply a demonstration of hijacking the brain/body of the patient to elicit a response. It's in effect, a slightly-more sophisticated version of the old parlor trick of 150 yrs ago, where scientists made a frogs muscle twitch with electricity by attaching a battery to it.

    The problem is the study doesn't tell us anything about HOW the brain generates such impulses on its own, as the "first mover" of the idea to move one's hand. That's the 'spark' of which I speak, and it likely results from the interactions of MANY different neurons scattered throughout the brain and connected to the body, resulting in the perception of 'free will' as the organism tries to maintain homeostasis. The sum of the experience results in consciousness, being an an emergent property of not just the brain, but the entire organism.

    However, there are so many variables contributing to the interaction (including the randomness and unpredictability inherent in billions of atoms of neuronal and somatic cells) that being able to replicate (much less predict) the outcome likely is beyond the abilities of all the World's computers. Throw in the interactions of 7 billion humans on the Planet, too?

    That unknown and the seeming 'directed randomness' certainly creates the perception of free will, if not the reality of it.

    Adam

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    What we give attention to recircuits and reinforces those neuron networks. Those brain cells that are not reinforced die off or are repurposed. Our very attention changes the brain.

  • willmarite
    willmarite

    I find this interesting as well, jgnat. Would this indicate that our will, attention, and consciousness can reside outside the brain?

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Your extrapolations continue to puzzle me, will. Where in that did you get the idea that our attention/consciousness can reside outside our brain?

  • adamah
    adamah

    Here's a neuroscientist who's found evidence to support that humans are wired for free will:

    http://now.dartmouth.edu/2013/03/neuroscientist-says-humans-are-wired-for-free-will/

    jgnat said-

    What we give attention to recircuits and reinforces those neuron networks. Those brain cells that are not reinforced die off or are repurposed. Our very attention changes the brain.

    Yup, that is what 'learning' is all about: actively remodeling and reinforcing synaptic connections, in a directed manner. The tendency for atrophy is another way of saying the natural tendency is to become dumber UNLESS we make efforts to continue to learn new stuff.

    BTW, here's a slightly-related thought-provoking PBS show with David Pogue, called "Making Stuff Colder":

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/making-more-stuff.html#making-stuff-colder

    (Click on the green button on the right side of the window to watch.)

    The show focuses on practical applications of cold (from medical to quantum super-computing), where humans use temperature to change the properties of matter as it approaches absolute zero.

    Adam

  • willmarite
    willmarite

    What is it you are indicating when you say "our very attention changes the brain"?

    Is the power to give something attention located in physical traces in the brain when doing so changes the physical make up of the brain? I don't know. I'm only asking.

    Your puzzlement puzzles me.

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