May 15/02 Watchtower: Apostate/Dateline Warning:

by dungbeetle 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

dungbeetle

This is just the text of this article, comments will follow in a nother posting. THIS IS NOT A STUDY ARTICLE.
Thanks to plmcrzy who borrowed a car and drove miles to get this thing to me.
here are actual scans of the article (thanks AlanF)
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INTEGRITY LEADS THE UPRIGHT ONES
MAN, born of woman, is short-lived and glutted with agitation," says the Bible. (Job 14: 1) Pain and suffering seem to be the common lot of human existence. Why, even everyday life can be full of anxieties and turmoil! What will guide us successfully through trying circumstances and help us maintain a righteous standing with God?
Consider the example of a wealthy man named Job, who lived some 3, 500 years ago in what is now Arabia. What calamity Satan brought upon this God-fearing man! He lost all his livestock and suffered the loss of his beloved children in death. Shortly thereafter, Satan struck Job with malignant boils from head to foot. (Job, chapters 1, 2) Job had no knowledge of why bad things were happening to him. Yet, "Job did not sin with his lips." (Job Z: 10) "Until I expire I shall not take away my integrity from myself!” he said. (Job 2: 10) Yes, Job's integrity guided him through his trials.
Integrity is defined as moral soundness or completeness and involves being blameless and faultless in the sight of God. However, it does not imply perfection of speech and action by imperfect humans, who cannot possibly measure up completely to God's standards. Rather, human integrity denotes wholeness or completeness of heart devotion to Jehovah and to his will and purpose. Such godly devotion guides, or leads, the upright ones under all conditions and at all times. The first part of the 11th chapter of the Bible book of Proverbs shows how our integrity can guide us in various areas of life and assures us of the blessings that will follow. With keen interest, then, let us turn to what is recorded there.
Integrity Leads to Honesty in Business
Highlighting the principle of honesty using poetic words rather than legal terms, King Solomon of ancient Israel says: 'A cheating pair of scales is something detestable to Jehovah, but a complete stone-weight is a pleasure to him.' (Proverbs 11: 1) This is the first of four occurrences in the book of Proverbs where scales and weights,are used to denote that Jehovah desires his worshipers to be honest in their business dealings.-Proverbs16:11; 2O:10, 23.
The prosperity of those resorting to a cheating pair of scales-or to dishonesty-may be enticing. But would we really want to forsake God's standards of good and bad by engaging in unethical business practices? Not if we are guided by integrity. We shun dishonesty because a complete stone-weight, a just weight signifying honesty, delights Jehovah.
"Wisdom Is With the Modest Ones"
King Solomon continues: " Has presumptuouness come? Then dishonor will come; but wisdom is with the modest ones." (Proverbs 11:2) Presumptuousness-whether it manifests itself as pride, disobedience, or envy-brings disgrace. On the other hand, humble recognition of our limitations is the course of wisdom. How well Scriptural examples illustrate the truth of this proverb!
An envious Levite, Korah, led a rebellious mob against the authority of Jehovah's appointed servants Moses and Aaron. What was the outcome of that presumptuous act? 'The earth opened its mouth and proceeded to
swallow up'some of the rebels, while others, including Korah, were consumed by fire. (Numbers 16:1-3, 16-35; 26:10; Deuteronomy 11:6) What dishonor!
Consider also Uzzah, who presumptuously reached out and grabbed hold of the ark of the covenant to prevent it from falling. He was struck dead on the spot. (2 Samuel 6:3-8) How vital that we shun presumptuousness!
A humble and modest person does not suffer dishonor even when he errs. Job, though exemplary in many ways, was imperfect. His trials revealed a serious flaw in some of his thinking. In defending himself against his accusers, Job became somewhat unbalanced. He even implied that he was more righteous than God. (Job 35:2, 3) How did Jehovah correct Job's thinking?
Pointing to the earth, the sea, the starry heavens, some of the animals, and other marvels of creation, Jehovah gave Job a lesson in man's littleness compared with God's greatness. (Job, chapters 38-41) Nowhere in his speech did Jehovah state why Job was suffering. He did not need to. Job was modest. He humbly recognized the great difference between him and God, between his own imperfection and weaknesses and Jehovah's righteousness and power. "I make a retraction, he said, "and I do repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:6) Job's integrity led him to accept the reproof readily. What about us? Led by integrity, would we readily accept reproof or correction when needed?
Moses too was modest and humble. When he was wearing himself out in caring for the problems of others, his father-in-law, Jethro, offered a practical solution: Share some responsibility with other qualified men. Recognizing his own limitations, Moses wisely accepted the suggestion. (Exodus 18:17-26; Numbers 12:3) A modest man is not reluctant to delegate authority to others, nor does he fear that he somehow loses control by sharing appropriate responsibilities with other qualified men. (Numbers 11:16, 17, 26-29) Rather, he is eager to help them to progress spiritually. (I Timothy 4:15) Should that not be true of us also?
The Way of the Blameless One Is Straight'
Recognizing that integrity does not always shield the upright from danger or calamity, Solomon states: “The integrity of the upright ones is what leads them, but distortion by those dealing treacherously will despoil them." (Proverbs 11:3) Integrity indeed guides the upright to do what is right in God's eyes, even under difficult circumstances, and brings benefits in the long run. Job refused to abandon his integrity, and Jehovah "blessed the end of Job afterward more than his beginning." (Job 42:12) Those who deal treacherously may feel that they are bettering themselves at the expense of someone else and may even seem to prosper for a time. But sooner or later their own deceit will destroy them.
HOW FOOLISH TO SLAVE FOR MATERIAL GAIN BUT NEGLECT THEOCRATIC ACTIVITIES!
“Valuable things will be of no benefit on the day of fury' says the wise king, "but righteousness itself will deliver from death.-” (Proverbs 11:4) How foolish to slave for material gain- but fail to make room for personal study, prayer, meeting attendance, and the field ministry-the very activities that deepen our love for God and strengthen our devotion to him! No amount of wealth will bring deliverance through the upcoming great tribulation. (Matthew 24:21) Only the righteousness of the upright will. (Revelation 7:9, 14) We are wise, therefore, to take to heart Zephaniah's entreaty: "Before there comes upon you the day of Jehovah's anger, seekJ ehovah, all you meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness." (Zephaniah 2:2, 3) Meanwhile, let us make it our aim to 'honor Jehovah with our valuable things.’-Proverbs 3:9.
Emphasizing further the value of pursuing righteousness, Solomon contrasts the outcome of the blameless with that of the wicked, saying: 'The righteousness of the blameless one is what will make his way straight, but in his own wickedness the wicked one will fall. The righteousness of the upright ones is what will deliver them, but by their craving those dealing treacherously will themselves be caught. When a wicked man dies, his hope perishes; and even expectation based on powerfulness has perished. The righteous is the one rescued even from distress, and the wicked one comes in instead of him.” (Proverbs 11:5-8) The blameless one neither falls in his own ways nor gets tangled up in his own dealings. His way is straight. In the end, the upright are rescued from distress. The wicked may seem powerful, but no such
deliverance awaits them.
"A Town Is Elated"
The integrity of the upright and the wickedness of evildoers also have an effect on other people. “By his mouth the one who is an apostate brings his fellowman to ruin,' says the king of Israel, "but by knowledge are the righteous rescued." (Proverbs 11:9) Who will deny that slander, harmful gossip, obscene talk, and idle chatter are damaging to others? A righteous one's speech, on the other hand, is pure, well-thought out, and considerate. By knowledge he is rescued because his integrity furnishes him with the points of reasoning needed to show that his accusers are lying.
"Because of the goodness of the righteous ones a town is elated," continues the king, “but when the wicked ones perish there is a joyful cry.” (Proverbs 11:10) The righteous generally are loved by others, and they make their neighbors feel elated-happy and joyful. No one is really fond of "wicked ones." When the wicked die, they are not usually mourned by people in general. 'There certainly will be no sorrow when Jehovah 'cuts off the wicked from the earth and tears away the treacherous from it.' (Proverbs 2:21, 22) Rather, there will be joy because they have been removed from the scene. But what about us? We do well to consider if the way we conduct ourselves contributes to the joy of others.
"A Town Is Exalted"
Further contrasting the effect of the upright and the wicked on a community, Solomon states: "Because of the blessing of the upright ones a town is exalted, but because of the month of the wicked ones it gets torn down." -Proverbs 11: 11.
Townspeople who follow an upright course promote peace and well-being and build up others in the community. Thus, a town is exalted-it prospers. Those who speak slanderous, hurtful, and wrong things cause unrest, unhappiness, disunity, and trouble. This is particularly so if these individuals are in a position of influence. Such a town suffers disorder, corruption, and moral and
perhaps econornic deterioration.
The principle stated at Proverbs 11:11 applies with equal force to Jehovah's people as they associate with one another in their townlike congregations. A congregation in which spiritual people-upright ones led by their integrity-have influence is an assembly of happy, active, and helpful people, bringing honor to God. Jehovah blesses the congregation, and it prospers spiritually. Here and there, the few who may be disgruntled and dissatisfied, who find fault and speak bitterly about the way things are done, are like a "poisonous root" that can spread and poison others who initially were unaffected. (Hebrews 12:15) Such ones often want more authority and prominence. They stir up rumors that there is injustice, ethnic prejudice, or the like, in the congregation or on the part of the elders. Their mouth, indeed, can cause a division in the congregation. Should we not turn a deaf ear to their talk and strive to be spiritual people who contribute to peace and unity in the congregation?
Continuing, Solomon says: “The one in want of heart has despised his own fellowman, but the man of broad discernment is one that keeps silent. The one walking about as a slanderer is uncovering confidential talk, but the one faithful in spirit is covering over a matter. -Proverbs 11:12,13.
What great harm is caused by someone who lacks good judgment, or is "in want of heart"! He carries on his loose talk to the point of slander or reviling. The appointed elders must be quick to put an end to such an unwholesome influence. Unlike "the one in want of heart," a man of discernment knows when to keep silent. Rather than betray a confidence, he covers over the matter. Knowing that an unguarded tongue can cause much harm, a discerning person is "faithful in spirit." He is loyal to fellow believers and does not divulge confidential matters that might endanger them. What a blessing such integrity-keepers are to the congregation!
To help us walk in the way of the blameless ones, Jehovah provides an abundant supply of spiritual food prepared under the direction of “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Matthew 24: 45) We also receive much personal assistance through Christian elders in our townlike congregations. (Ephesians 4: 11-13) We are indeed grateful for these, for “when there is no skillful direction, the people fall; but there is salvation in the multitude of couselors.” (Proverbs 11: 14) Come what may, let us be firmly determined to ‘walk in our integrity.’-Psalm 26:1.
dungbeetle

Previous Watchtower policy and terminology:
‘slander’ by nature and definition is lying. It is generally a disfellowshipping offense and intent is not an isue.
‘gossip’ and ‘reviling’ behavior may be true in its substance, but intent is an issue. While I am not sure if it is a disfellowshipping offense, I do believe that ‘marking’ and loss/denial of congregational privileges is a common practice for behavior that falls into this category.
Here are some statements the average person likely would have no problem with…
>Who will deny that slander, harmful gossip, obscene talk, and idle chatter are damaging to others?
>Those who speak slanderous, hurtful, and wrong things cause unrest, unhappiness, disunity and trouble. This is particularly so if these individuals are in a position of influence.
Here start the problems:
>Those who speak slanderous, hurtful, and wrong things…
a ‘wrong’ thing is not clearly identified here and is therefore left up to the person ‘hearing’ this thing and the person making the judgement of its ‘wrongfulness’. This statement is vague and subjective. This is a lot of power to put into someone’s hands, particularly ‘untrained volunteers’.
Think of it this way. You go for a job interview. You are told, upon being hired, that if you say any ‘wrong’ thing you will be subject to firing. Are you not immediately going to ask ‘what’s a wrong thing, then?”….
Next up, is the statement: “Here and there, the few who may be disgruntled and dissatisfied, who find fault and speak bitterly about the way things are done, are like a "poisonous root" that can spread and poison others who initially were unaffected…They stir up rumors that there is injustice, ethnic prejudice, or the like, in the congregation or on the part of the elders.”
If this statement sounds familiar to you, it should. Bill Bowen specifically refers to this with regard to JW victims of JW pedophiles whose attackers were not disfellowshiped, or were not disfellowshiped very long. Bill stated in his interview at www.silentlambs.com, that “if the elders view the evidence as insufficient to generate a judicial response, that is the end of the matter and if the victim speaks of the matter any farther, the victim can be guilty of slander and is subject for a judicial committee and/or disfellowshiping. He cited a particlar Watchtower, and for further reference I would like to add the ‘Organized’ and ‘Pay Attention’ books available at watchtower.observer.org and also the ‘Lamp’ book which will hopefully soon be available as well.
As brought out by ‘waiting’, this isn’t terribly new. Not proceedurally, no; but its applications I believe have been broadened.
We already know that the Watchtower CLAIMS that ‘those who simply cease to practice the faith are not shunned.’ This of course controverts the Watchtower of 7/15/93 :
"Inactivity in the ministry or in attending Christian meetings does not mean that the sheep is no longer part of the flock. He remains part of “all the flock” for whom the elders must “render an account” to Jehovah…Regrettably, in certain instances it becomes evident that a member of the congregation lacks godly sorrow for serious sins that he has committed. Loving shepherds then have a Scriptural responsibility to protect the rest of the flock against this contaminating influence.—"
Next up, WT 11/15/73 Questions from Readers wherein it says:
"However, if a Christian refuses to correct a serious wrong when it is made clear to him by elders serving in judicial capacity in the congregation, such a one would be expelled. … The injured party could thereafter decide whether legal action should be taken in an attempt to force the guilty one, now disfellowshiped, to rectify matters. If the wronged Christian conscientiously felt that God's name would not be reproached and legal action was definitely needed, he would not necessarily be acting contrary to the spirit of Paul's counsel if he were to take to court one who was no longer a part of the Christian congregation. Jehovah God has permitted secular authority to serve as his instrument in bringing lawbreakers to justice, and in this case the one wronged would be availing himself of legal help after exhausting the intracongregational means to have the wrong corrected. -Rom. 13:3,4."
So here’s the scenario. Brother A molests/rapes Sister B. Sister B reports the perpetrator to the elders. Elders disfellowship Brother A. Sister B is now free to go to the authorities or sue in civil court. There even seems to be a scriptural basis for this sequence of events.
Next scenario: Brother A molests/rapes Sister B. Sister B reports Brother A to elders. Elders do not disfellowship because of lack of evidence. Sister B may not go to authorities criminally or civilly as she will be slandering/reviling/not covering over a confidential matter. Sister B is disfellowshiped.
Next scenario: Brother A molests/rapes Sister B. Sister B reports Brother A to elders. Elders do not disfellowship because of lack of evidence. Sister B may not go to authorities criminally or civilly as she will be slandering/reviling/not covering over a confidential matter. (Sister B gets around) So THIS TIME, Sister B bides her time. She moves away to a different congregation. She becomes inactive, not attending meetings, not turning in field service time, for say a year or more. Then she goes to the authorities. But Sister B is still a member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and so Sister B is disfellowshiped for slandering/reviling/not covering over a confidential matter.
Does this apply to just publishers? One BOE letter states that if a known pedophile elder (tho not currently molesting—retired as it were-) moves to another congregational territory, a letter explaining that elder’s background does not need to be sent along with him. It is confidential, if I understand it correctly.
What worries me, and what I see so dangerous, is Witnesses and former Witnesses who have spoken out in support of victims of sexual abuse are in danger of disfellowshiping even if they are inactive. (WT 7/15/93) –though Alan makes some very good reasonings on the matter and I hope he is right and continues to be so—and especially if their perpetrator was not disfellowshiped or becomes reinstated so quickly the victim has not had time to report to the authorities before the perpetrator is a Witness yet again. (WT 11/15/73) This happens more than can be imagined.
The vague wording ‘wrong’ coupled by the statement “ rumors of injustice…or the like in the congregation or on the part of the elders”, coupled by the statement “He is loyal to fellow believers and does not divulge confidential matters that might endanger them” coupled with “The appointed elders must be quick to put an end to such unwholesome influence”.
Go over the elders heads and take your perpetrator to court and you can be disfellowshiped. Better yet, speak to anyone in the congregation of a perceived injustice and you can be shunned (turn a deaf ear to their talk, otherwise known as marking at least and shunning at most) without even a judicial committee.
One random statement is not cause for concern necessarily. But several Watchtowers, at least two BOE letters, two internal books, and a good deal of credible eyewitness reports of observed incidents, and NOW you can be CONCERNED.
I don’t see how this can be viewed as anything less than a pre-emptive strike in relation to AJWRB and Silentlambs, and more specifically Dateline.
Well, it isn’t going to work. Not this time. NOT THIS TIME.
Pathofthorns

Next scenario: Brother A molests/rapes Sister B. Sister B reports Brother A to elders. Elders do not disfellowship because of lack of evidence. Sister B may not go to authorities criminally or civilly as she will be slandering/reviling/not covering over a confidential matter. Sister B is disfellowshiped.
Next scenario: Brother A molests/rapes Sister B. Sister B reports Brother A to elders. Elders do not disfellowship because of lack of evidence. Sister B may not go to authorities criminally or civilly as she will be slandering/reviling/not covering over a confidential matter. (Sister B gets around) So THIS TIME, Sister B bides her time. She moves away to a different congregation. She becomes inactive, not attending meetings, not turning in field service time, for say a year or more. Then she goes to the authorities. But Sister B is still a member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and so Sister B is disfellowshiped for slandering/reviling/not covering over a confidential matter.
The sister does not get charged with slander for going to the authorities. She is always free to go to the authorities as clearly stated by the 02-02 BOE letter.
The problem arrises when the sister does not go to authorities or fails to get a conviction after going to the authorities and then proceeds to tell others in the congregation that an individual is a molester.
Since she has not proven her case and the individual accused has denied the allegations, the individual must be assumed to be innocent of the charges. In order to protect this person's character from futher damage, the sister could be charged with slander.
There is a huge difference between warning a community of a convicted molester and "warning" a community of an individual who has not been convicted of the crime.
The Society should make these things more clear to the average publisher so they can be more familiar with it. It should also be known that elders err frequently in their handling of judicial matters and their application of Society policy. Unfortunately if no one calls them on these things, and sometimes it is difficult to do, they tend to get away with it.
My problem with the above article (May 2002) is that makes no distinction between common gossip and people who have legitame concerns over the way things are done or genuine injustice in the congregation (or organization). While unfounded gossip is a trademark of Witnesses, so is elder incompetence, injustice and poor handling of matters. The outlets the Society provides are generally inadequate and tedious.
Path
LDH

btt
SYN

The audacity of the Governing Body is breath-taking.
He is loyal to fellow believers and does not divulge confidential matters that might endanger them. What a blessing such integrity-keepers are to the congregation
I will say no more.
Every religion is the One True Religion.
silentlambs

The article is an obvious attemp to demonize anyone who says anything the elders do not want you to say. When someone does speak out on a real problem they can easily be silenced by using the material above. This helps to isolate the person speaking out and causes the congregation to automatically view them as a bad example who is not a "good associate." The end result is any error or problem that hurts the innocent is covered over, when the wronged party tries to speak out they are punished for seeking justice.
waiting

I know (at least in my mind of memories) that there is a man in southern Indianapolis, Ind. who raped me while my father watched ......and at least several other children.
I went to the police at around age 45 - with not a shred of evidence. I know all sorts of things about that man - but no police-style evidence. What evidence would I have - semen after 35 years? They did investigate as much as possible - pulled his record (clean), talked with his employer (not about specifics), etc., etc.
Did they bring him in for questioning? Absolutely not. Why not? Absolutely no evidence.
If there had been evidence, could they bring him in for questioning? Yes. If there was insufficient evidence, could they give this information to the newspapers that he was a molester? Absolutely not - the detectives told me that they could (and mostly like would) be sued for slander and defamation of character.
The exact same thing that any witness could be sued for if they went around telling other people that Brother/Sister ........was a child molester - and it wasn't Court proven. Even if it were proven in the congregation - that elder-proved molester could turn around and sued the elders and congregation for slander and defamation of character if word got around. It's happened - we know that's the reason why elders don't announce why a person is df'd anymore. They got sued for slander and defamation of character.
To my knowledge - that's the law. You just can't go around stating that other persons are guilty of gross (even not gross) crimes without sufficient proof. You can end up in court being sued. If you can end up in court being sued for slander and defamation of character, why can't you end up being disfellowshipped for the same crime?
I reported the former Ministerial Servant who molested my daughter to his local elders. They were going to go talk to him about that, and the letter his grown daughter had written them about the years of rapes she endured from him. His wife got wind of the purpose of the meeting, called elders, and told them that if they stepped on her property and uttered the words "child molester", she'd sue for slander. They backed off - as the Society instructed them to (they called).
I reported it to the police. What'd they tell me? "Do you have any evidence?" No. "Then's there's not much we can do about a molestation that happened 10 years ago." Zip.
As for all the crappy inuendos like "wrong words, wrong thinking" - it is crappy - and that's how the WTBTS succeeds - they know how to sling crap. As long as they keep the articles hazy - the local jw's will interprete hazy.
As brought out by ‘waiting’, this isn’t terribly new. Not proceedurally, no; but its applications I believe have been broadened.
I agree that the WTBTS is tightening the noose around the necks of the locals - they'll have to in order to keep the status quo. If this were a free corporation - they'd let them think and talk. But it's not - so it's "applications" will most likely be broadened, as you've said. We are in agreement.
Thanks for the posting of this article, Dungbeetle. I appreciate your work. This whole situation is frustrating as hell to all that are involved. Breaks hearts, minds, and souls.
waiting
waiting

Btw, Dungbeetle,
In my personal experience, you're scenarios didn't work. I did go to the elders, I did go to the police. The actual rape victims (my daughter and Maria, his daughter) were both disfellowshipped. There was nothing congregational holding them back from reporting to the police. Nothing but themselves. They had already had the shame of df'ing, losing of most of family, losing all friends, losing jw self-worth. Why didn't they go to the police themselves?
My daughter refused to be the "eye of the storm" - and I can only speculate that Maria just wanted to get on with her life. Perhaps she feared and/or loved the man - I don't know. I hope she got some help and succeeded. Lovely girl, who just happened to introduce my daughter to her father.
Interestingly, about Maria - who was df'd twice before writing the letter to her hometown BOE. It could be inferred that she was "discouraged" from reporting to the police - since she didn't. It could also be inferred that she wrote a letter to people she knew, who she thought might be able to stop her father.....as there were many grandchildren in that family.
But the point is........none of the 3 of us were stopped from going to the police. The elders, most assuredly, didn't go - which is unforgiveable to me. But they never even inferred to me that I shouldn't go. Never - and I was working with 3 different BOE on this for at least 3 months.
I'm sure that the elders' duplicity of intent has happened to others - and hopefully they'll continue to speak up. But your scenarios aren't 100% accurate.
waiting
dungbeetle

Waiting..with all due respect dear, this is a MAY 15 Watchtower, that isn't even available to the public as of yet.
I understand about 'past expereices'; but you're making my point FOR ME...and also making the point IN YOUR OWN POST...the application of this may be new.
I think we may have to just wait and see what happens after the elder 'swat teams' have made their rounds. Watchtower may have been planning 'something' but if we act quickly, we can stop the snowball from ever being built.
There are just so many of us, they cannot stop us all and shut us up. I think, too, Watchtower is counting on the DF and DA arrangements, and the anonymity of the WEB is short circuiting that avenue of the WT. They are stuck with these 'infiltrators' for as long as these JW's care to operate within their ranks (heehee).
My biggest concern is warning as many inactives in the field as possible about this recent turn of events, not just necessarily stopping at the ones on the web. I don't know how to do, even if it can be done.
(((( waiting ))))
The only thing going in our favor is our numbers and the trememdous communication system we all have in palce.
edited: May 5 to May 15 corrected typo.
edited: This was in the mail, the subscribers get their copies a little bit before the boxed magazines get shipped from wherever they come from. It acutally might be out today, but it wasn't yesterday when I checked my Hall. But our magazines are late a lot becasue they don't get paid for like they are supposed to.
waiting

howdy dung,
May 15/02 Watchtower: Apostate/Dateline Warning - subject heading of this thread
Waiting..with all due respect dear, this is a MAY 5 Watchtower, that isn't even available to the public as of yet.
If it's not available to the public yet (the MAY 5 WT,) - how'd you get it? Just curious.
And then if the MAY 5 isn't available yet....how'd you get the MAY 15 WT? Just curious again.
Get the wrong post on the wrong thread, did I? Don't know - too many dealing with the different aspects of molestation in the last week. If I made your point for you, fine. But I wanted to make my point also, which hopefully, I did. That was my intent anyway.
Sorry if I was confused, common condition for me.
waiting

May 15/02 Watchtower: Apostate/Dateline Warning:

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