Giant thread of convince-me-not-to-be-a-theist

by DS211 243 Replies latest jw friends

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  DS211

  Actually that wasnt an argument for God...it was a statement regarding the world and things we are experiencing..think about it ....compassion wouldnt have its merit without the suffering that happened. For example if people in third world countries, althoug perhaps more simple living, did not suffer, people would not be compelled by compassion to assust them. i dont feel this is a standarzation and i dont agree that people should suffer...nor do i feel this is a loving trai by God....in fact, as i mentioned, i did not have a plausibke explanation for this.

  And in fact, human suffering was part of what pulled me out of the WT. I spent too much time studiously studying lol, what it is that people go through. And i see it everyday At work. Ive laughed and cried with them, and held their hands as they passed.
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  cofty

  DS211 - You seem to be admitting that there is no adequate theodicy.

  Is that not checkmate?
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  adamah

  DS said-

  compassion wouldnt have its merit without the suffering that happened. For example if people in third world countries, althoug perhaps more simple living, did not suffer, people would not be compelled by compassion to assust them. i dont feel this is a standarzation and i dont agree that people should suffer...nor do i feel this is a loving trai by God....in fact, as i mentioned, i did not have a plausibke explanation for this.

  You're pondering a permutation of the age-ol' theodicy question: why do people suffer? Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do the wicked seemingly prosper?

  As is typical, the Bible 'shotguns' the answer, such that the reader is able to pick and choose the appropriate verses, depending on their need: it's like selecting a greeting card from a Hallmark Store. Eg, if the person is bad, they point to scriptures saying how the evil-doer will face punishment from God. If the person is good, they use Ecclestiastes ("unforeseen events befall all"). Of course, the Bible offers another answer to the question in Job, too: God is testing you, via Satan, to determine IF you're good or bad, righteous or unrighteous.

  In fact, a non-JW scholarly article on the story of Job is written by Robert Sutherland, a Canadian lawyer and OT scholar who's research into the ancient legal codes of Israel shows the story is driven by an ancient legal doctrine called 'the Oath of Innocence', which is completely missed by most JWs.

  www.bookofjob.org

  (It's available as a free download, or for reading on the site. If you don't know what the oath of innocence is, you haven't yet read Job with any insight, since it's an eye-opener.)

  But point being, the Bible is a big book of multiple-choice answers, and picking the 'correct' scripture is driven only by the familiarity of the reader with the available options from which to choose. Hence the Bible is a book that allows justification, since the reader is in the driver's seat, and his choice is reflecting his desires, not Gods.

  Adam
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  DS211

  I was unaware this was a chessgame mate. Nor have i said at any point you were dead wrong....i ask questions because i need answers, even if they are ones i dont want to hear.

  Oh i forgot to answer. the hiddenness of God. It depends on who you are mate. Theists would say they see God in all hes created, the unique design of things. Atheists would say they dont see God at all because there is t a God-o-meter to measure it with. i guess thats the whole faith thing eh? Didnt christ say that? Happy are those who dont see yet believe....a theist would say "right on Jesus!" Atheists would say "dude, Jesus, how can you ask me to believe in somethin i cant validate nor see?"

  You see the dilemma here i hope. as i stand now i dont discount nor disagree with what you e said, but still cannot evade the feeling of something else, indescribable...something that also lead me from the WT..conscience? Maybe...but my conscience stirs with the No God thing also...its not a deeply indoctrinated feeling as prior to the WT i did not attnd church but was free to feel and decide what spoke to me (not literally).
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  bohm

  DS: Atheists would say they dont see God at all because there is t a God-o-meter to measure it with.

  I dont think many atheists would say or think this way. Consider the same argument used in a different situation. I might say to my UFO-sceptic friend: "you dont see aliens because there is no alien-o-meter to measure them". I dont think this would be a fair reply; quite clearly whats being asked for (in the case of god or aliens) would be simple observations of the sort we demand in any other case. these do obviously not exist and so we are left with philosophical arguments. Why? what should we make of that?

  A theist might say he sees god in the apparent design in nature. But how exactly does that square with the discovery the thing in nature that appear the most designed --life-- turned out to have evolved?

  What are we seing when the design is cruel and indifferent to human life, such as Onchocerca volvulus, the small worm that live in the eyeballs of amongst other things humans and cause them to go blind? who designed that? if nobody, then design can arise naturally. If god, what would that make god?
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  DS211

  Um actually adamah you couldnt be more wrong...never have i ever felt nor do i feel that evil peope are being punished by God according to what happens to them in life. as far as seeing someone suffer that i love...i watched the slow and progressive death of my grandfather as he suffered and lost what used to be a fit, strong, and resilient life. i found myself asking why...and you know what i came up with? he worked with hazardous materials that humans created , and protected even though they knew it was hazardous. How i Could forget this and follow ann organization so false and hazardous im not sure. But this material=his death. His death=money for my college but also money that split alart my family. that split lead me to me cing home after my bachelors and eventually meeting my wife, a job at this place i am now, and then the organization. Now i could ponder the what ifs and drive myself nuts thinking what might have been. I could praise God for leading me from the shitty moments and teaching me how awful the world is (the one Christs kongdon is in through the org right?), or i can understand that life is a serious of moments kne leading to the other theough action/reaction or choice/consequence and know that it is what it is, life....either way i only know FOR SURE one truth....i should be a good person who doesnt judge or hate others for what they believe, but also that i am held accountable to my decisions....to God? Maybe...but to my family and other people? ABSOLUTELY. Because what i feel really only matters to me in the most primitive sense...but how i act on those feelings and treat others, that has a profound effect mot just on me, but others. that is morality right? Wheres morality come from? Evolution?genetics? God? Socialization? Im not sure. And thats what i know.....pretty much nothing academically or scholarly...but its me, and mentally im waking up and opening up to possibilities.

  sorry guys i know that doesnt answer your question but i had to vent lol. im not a nutter...i was. i was JW.

  DS
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  cofty

  Theists would say they see God in all hes created

  But that would be circular reasoning.
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  DS211

  Cofty...i agree.
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  bohm

  DS: And thats what i know.....pretty much nothing academically or scholarly...but its me, and mentally im waking up and opening up to possibilities.

  Thats good.. sorry if you feel I pile onto you but you did start the topic :-).

  Keep asking questions and get to see the case from both sides... dont deside on anything right away.

  If you feel a sence of urgency in terms of giving you counter-arguments: in my time here I have seen some people come with lots of questions and a sence of being lost, only to slowly glide into some rather unhealthy "thou art going to hell" sort of belief. There was a poster called BrotherDan who went that route, it was really messy especially since IIRC he took the hellfire path with his still-believing wife :-(.

  Please dont think I feel you are going that way, just take care and keep an open mind. Best wishes in your journey.
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  Comatose

  I definitely wouldn't feel comfortable trying to convince you not to believe. That's personal. No one here is capable of convincing you. People believe what they need or want to believe.

  I would just encourage you to read the book Why Evolution Is True by Jerry Coyne. It's a nice simple yet full explanation for laymen like us. Ironically I don't hope you become Agnostic or Atheist. I do hope you bravely look at the evidence available. I find its enjoyable to debate or discuss topics with intelligent people with open minds. You don't need a degree in biology, but you do need to understand the basics and how much evidence currently exists.

  Good luck.