by DS211 243 Replies latest jw friends
Bohm--hey mate im sorry i didnt see your post on the worm. Yea i agree its things like these that make me think "umm" or hey why do spiders have venom if they were created. Why did God make lions eat other meat? Were they really herbavores before adam and eve sinned? All questions i have no answers to . But now that im mentally free i will continue to explore for the truth.
you guys and all on JWN have astronomically helped me to open my eyes....i appreciate that.
Comatose...im tired of fitting in weird little boxes that divide me from others. I dont give a damn if youre atheist, agnostic, christian, etc etc....were humans. Period. Thanks maybe i will start with that book. Is there a pdf or do i need to buy it...i keep forgetting i have big brother watching me still lol
DS said-
Um actually adamah you couldnt be more wrong...never have i ever felt nor do i feel that evil peope are being punished by God according to what happens to them in life. as far as seeing someone suffer that i love...
Uh, maybe you didn't catch that I was offering a short synopsis of what the BIBLE offers to resolve the theodicy question, and not what DS personally believes, or what I believe (I'm an atheist).
And as Cofty said, it's no solution at all: in fact, that was the question that made me awaken, as an unbaptized JW at age 12 (although I didn't even KNOW it had a fancy name like 'theodicy', and that Bible apologetists had been wrestling with it for millenia, being unable to come up with a satisfying answer for anyone who's not willing to accept things on faith, AKA people who are gullible).
DS said- i watched the slow and progressive death of my grandfather as he suffered and lost what used to be a fit, strong, and resilient life. i found myself asking why...and you know what i came up with? he worked with hazardous materials that humans created , and protected even though they knew it was hazardous. How i Could forget this and follow ann organization so false and hazardous im not sure. But this material=his death. His death=money for my college but also money that split alart my family. that split lead me to me cing home after my bachelors and eventually meeting my wife, a job at this place i am now, and then the organization. Now i could ponder the what ifs and drive myself nuts thinking what might have been. I could praise God for leading me from the shitty moments and teaching me how awful the world is (the one Christs kongdon is in through the org right?), or i can understand that life is a serious of moments kne leading to the other theough action/reaction or choice/consequence and know that it is what it is, life....either way i only know FOR SURE one truth....i should be a good person who doesnt judge or hate others for what they believe, but also that i am held accountable to my decisions....to God? Maybe...but to my family and other people? ABSOLUTELY. Because what i feel really only matters to me in the most primitive sense...but how i act on those feelings and treat others, that has a profound effect mot just on me, but others. that is morality right? Wheres morality come from? Evolution?genetics? God? Socialization? Im not sure. And thats what i know.....pretty much nothing academically or scholarly...but its me, and mentally im waking up and opening up to possibilities.
JWs and Xians make such a big deal out of acting like humans cannot handle morality without God, when the real question should be, how can anyone come to a moral code WITH God cluttering their morality?
Matt Dilahunty (an ex-fundie pastor who went to theology school and preached for 20 yrs) makes a no-brainer argument for the SUPERIORITY of secular morality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq2C7fyVTA4
Here's a series of videos in a lecture he offers on the topic of the same name:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4119AEC250E7777E
Sam Harris, Matt, and many others have written reams on the topic of secular morality, as well... Google is your BFF.
DS said-sorry guys i know that doesnt answer your question but i had to vent lol. im not a nutter...i was. i was JW.
No worries: you're asking some important questions, and if the internet had been around back when I was asking those big questions, I'd have used it as a resource, too.
Adam
Cool thanks adamah..sorry i missed that in your post...i have some good stuff to read, cheers.
Yea ill admit the theodicy thing is new to me..more stuff stuff look at..ill make that a matter os "personal study"
DS: In terms of theodicies, the best (and relatively unbiased) source I can think of is actually this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy
Ok cool. Thanks! Im gonna need a beer and a lie down..my brain is mush
How do we know that only humans imagine things? My dog imagined many things. She would often stare at things not there. It freaked me out. I magined that, contrary to what I just checked, something had to be there b/c dogs have keener senses. Don't leave me home alone iwth the dog who imagines too much. She would bark her head off and I would be ready to call the police.
The slavery argument is interesting. I read a book on slavery by the leading academic in the country. He said every human alive is both the descendent of slave owners and slaves. It was very widespread throughout history. Something happened that our revulsion for it increased greatly. It was an equal opportunity property status, too, until the Atlantic slave trade. I believe Europe and Great Britain banned it first. It took the Civl War to ban it here. God is not the least bit moral in the Bible.
DS211,
Some things for you to consider about the arguments being given you (though there are some great arguments/debates on the forum regarding this issue; I'll try and look some up for you):
On the matter of Genesis 1, the the creation 'days' do not state that they are any specific amount of time. The sun and the moon and the stars created to govern the day and the night are not even formed until 'day four'. These days are time periods that could have spanned thousands, even millions of years. The account also does not say HOW God created animals, sea-life, etc.... only that He did so. It is only some fundamental, literalist views that would state that each day was a set time and that God 'poofed' things into existence.
Remember also, that a person writing these accounts with no knowledge of DNA or genes or adaptation, or even of cells, etc... is not going to be able to understand such a thing... nevermind explain such a thing to others who have no knowledge base of such things. Someone who tried is just going to be ignored, or considered nuts. That is why many things are told in metaphors that can be grasped through generations, even if something cannot yet be scientifically explained. Like John's revelation... he saw things that did not exist yet in his time (so no words existed yet) and described things according to the words and knowledge base that he DID have.
On the matter of science, such as evolution... there is no conflict between God and science, or even God and evolution. The only conflicts are those that man creates due to his lack of understanding of God or science, or both. It is okay not to have all the answers (in either one of these); the search for the answer can be pretty awesome too.
On the matter of redoing adam and eve... first, one thing people do not understand is the amount of energy (like radiation) creating life took to begin with... though one should be able to grasp that from what science has discovered. God did not snap his fingers; he is not a genie in the lamp. I cannot prove those things to you or anyone though. However, the other thing to consider in regard to adam and eve... is that God could see many who were to come FROM Adam and Eve, and so to destroy Adam and Eve would have meant to destroy... well, all of us. All who would love, do good to others, all who belonged to Him and to His Son. Gone. No chance to even exist to begin with. It would be God murdering them before they were born, something God would NOT do.
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So yes... the 'wheat and the weeds' grow together; until all who DO belong to God, who He has known before they were even born, are born and DO come to Life. So the alternative to what we have... is not having been given a chance at life at all.
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Just some things for you to consider also, while you are considering all arguments and views.
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Peace and love to you, and may you find the Truth you are seeking, and continue to show love and mercy and forgiveness to others on your path (for it is what you show that will be shown to you),
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tammy
I cannot prove those things to you or anyone though - Tammy
This is because Tammy gets her information in one of two ways...
1. She makes it up and pretends she heard Jesus' voice telling her
2. Her guru makes it up and pretends she heard Jesus' voice telling her and then she tells Tammy and Tammy pretends she heard it too.
It is obvious you are too intellectually honest to fall for this sort of chicanery.
