I'm thinking of applying for reinstatement

by Cygnus 74 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AjaxMan

  I don't know what would make me happy right now. I'm caught between wanting freedom and wanting truth. I am realizing that the two are mutually exclusive of each other.

  Cygnus,

  Only you can find that out for yourself. I mean, not me, not anyone can tell you what is the road to happiness, freedom and truth. It boils down to what works for anyone else might not work for you.

  I don't mean to be patronizing or be mean. I am just giving you my two cents. If you think that freedom and truth cannot coexist together, then find out why? If what you determine is that both cannot coexist together, then ask yourself: Do you want to live with freedom alone? or Do you want to live with truth alone?

  the choice is yours.

  regards,

  Ajax
• 

  Farkel

  Cyg,

  For whatever this is worth, I say just give it time. It took me over ten years after I left the JWs to settle in a philosophy that I'm comfortable with, and that philosophy is still evolving. I think the pursuit of our destiny is part of the adventure life. Those who think they've already determined their destinies are the most boring and arrogant people I've known.

  joel,

  I didn't "attack" you.

  : Here's an example of something I still believe is logical about witness teaching. That the soul is not immortal. Prove to me logically that the soul is immortal. Prove to me that God is a trinity. Prove to me that there is a hell where people are tormented eternally. You said absolutely nothing that Jehovahs Witnesses teach is logical. There's 3 for you to start with.

  Yeah, I've heard that a zillion times. I should have said there is absolutely nothing logical about doctrines that are unique to Jehovah's Witnessess. Two of the three examples you've given are matters of faith only and faith is not logical. The example about the soul being mortal has also so far proven to be impossible to determine, although there is no solid evidence that the soul IS immortal. Even so, these beliefs are benign: no one gets injured or injures others believing or not believing in the trinity, hellfire or the immortal soul.

  Why didn't you cite examples of where the JW relgion DOES injure people, Joel? I can easily come up with several dozen MAJOR examples where this is so. If you want to return to dubland, you have to take ALL of it, not just the benign stuff. That includes denouncing your own sexuality as Satanic.

  Farkel
• 

  joelbear

  Good grief Farkel, I cite harmful things about the Watchtower Society almost daily here.

  My point is, that its not a black and white decision. The Watchtower does have logical teachings intermeshed with doctrines that make no sense whatsoever.

  Most people do not reason through the more difficult doctrines and probably don't even really understand what the watchtower teaches about them.

  I would wager than 90% of Witnesses never get much beyond.

  Jehovah is God's name.
  Jesus is not God.
  Hell is the grave
  Soul dies
  Jesus ransom sacrifice.
  There will some day be a paradise earth where I will have no problems.

  You yourself immediately had to back up from saying nothing about them is logical.

  Clearly much of any religious system is based on faith which is almost by definition not logical.

  I bristle at how simple a decision you make this appear to be. I think that is a condescending attitude and trivializes the true struggle that many people who visit here including myself go through regarding their decision to be an ex-witness.

  And you did attack me. You called me insane for feeling the way I do. That again trivializes me, the research I have done, my life experience, etc. I don't agree with Farkel so I am insane.

  Joel
• 

  dedalus

  Joel, quit whining! No one attacked you!

  If I were as sensitive about my opinions as you, I'd never have a conversation with anyone.

  All of the things you site as "logical" are so obviously matters of faith that it's very strange for you to catagorize them as matters of "logic." And none of the things you site are unique to the Witnesses. Other religions believe that the soul is mortal, that hell doesn't exist, that God is not part of a trinity. Sheesh.

  If there is a God, what difference does it make whether he's part of a trinity or not, anyway? How does that stupid question have anything to do with your life, Joel?

  Dedalus
• 

  Farkel

  : I bristle at how simple a decision you make this appear to be. I think that is a condescending attitude and trivializes the true struggle that many people who visit here including myself go through regarding their decision to be an ex-witness.

  "Any religion that teaches lies cannot be true."

  I think that is about as simple as it can get.

  Farkel
• 

  Undecided

  Hi Cagnus,

  The only truth that I can see with my eyes and confirm with my life's experiences is we are born by the effects of a sperm and an egg getting together, we grow up by the genetic code, we grow old(if we don't die from disease or some other cause before we grow old)and then die. Any other expectations are merely our imagination and our longing for more than this short stay here.

  When you get my age this truth is staring you in the face.

  I quess some people are pacified by some religious belief, but I am just trying to accept death as the end.

  I have also reached a point in my life where I don't enjoy the many hobbies I used to live for, I am trying to rekindle those interest so life will be more fun, since the stark realities of life arn't very upbuilding. The only realities that I truly enjoy is my family and when things go badly for them it too brings me down.

  I'm not very upbeat today, sorry about that.

  Good luck on your life.

  Ken P.
• 

  borgfree

  Hi Cygnus,

  I will add maybe 1/2 cent if you do not mind. I have become a born again believer, so I have a different outlook about all this, but I am not sure you are interested in that point of view, so I would like to just cover a couple of points.

  My relationship with God does not depend on any church or group, it is between my Lord and Savior and me. Churches are for gathering together with other believers to "build one another up" show "love and fine works" etc. I think that is good, but has nothing to do with my salvation. I could gain just as much, maybe more, by going to another believers home with maybe a few others. Wouldn't that actually be a church? That is, especially, if the others were also believers.

  My best enjoyment is going to ex-jw conventions. Of course I have a lot in common with the people there.

  My thinking about your going back to the organization is this. I think if you have any hopes of your family leaving the WT, going back would be the worse thing you might do. I think you would reinforce their belief that they are right, the organization is the only way, and that you have proven it, by returning.

  Borgfree

  "You can complain because roses have thorns, or you can rejoice because thorns have roses." -Ziggy
• 

  Cygnus

  Mommie Dark:

  I will not deny that I sometimes have a couple of cold ones instead of a decent dinner. You're right in that I need to establish a consistent and healthy diet.

  COMF:

  Ditto. ;) Also, you are more of an outgoing person than I am. You like people, I have a tendency to dislike people, unless I am in control of the environment. And I do not go to bars anymore (because I will not drink and drive) so my social activity is just about nil. I need to find other activities to be involved with. BUT, as I've said, I do NOT want to join any groups.

  postscript to MD: that means AA is definitely out of the question

  Farkel:

  I will give it some more time. I turned 30 last month. My father is 57. He's very ill. You don't want to know about everything he has wrong with him. He reads this board, BTW. I want to believe that when he dies more than just his legacy and our remembrance of him will continue on somehow. Because he was a better man than me, and if he will be gone forever, what good is my existence?

  That might be a little melodramatic but it is essentially the issue at hand.

  Undecided:

  I will likely never have children. Do you know what my greatest fear is, when I get older? That I will be sick like my father and I will not be able to play golf.

  Joel:

  I agree with your philosophy. I try to apply it. It is a constant thorn in my side to deal with my brother who is my partner in business, since he thinks the way to get things done is to insult people, call them names, act like he's NUMBER ONE TOUGH GUY IN CHARGE, and if things go sour, to do shit work and blame it on the working environment. He doesn't treat people with respect or even common good manners. I have to put up with that every day. And my wife works our office so she has to put up with it too, and put up with me. Ahhhhh, it's a vicious circle.

  Ajax:

  I have decided that "truth" is mostly subjective. I am being sued right now because someone claimed that I did a faulty installation of a product on their house. I know the claim is BS, but they had their own "expert" to say that it was my fault. I have the freedom to say the hell with it, but that wouldn't be fair to the truth. Thus the conundrum.
• 

  AlanF

  Cygnus, I didn't see this thread until this morning. You're going through a hard time now, but it'll pass. You and I can't see where you're going, but virtually every ex-JW I know reaches this point -- and goes on to a more settled frame of mind.

  You're right, you're never going to get reinstated unless you toe the line for several years. I don't think you could stomach the shit you'd have to eat, even if you told yourself you could do it. I know a few men who are well respected JWs, but they've told me that they don't believe 30-80% of the JW teachings. They're wimpy men in many ways, and stick with it partly out of fear of losing their wives and partly out of inertia. They've resigned themselves to picking bits of pleasure from their lives here and there. But they've all told me that they wouldn't do it again. They're basically unhappy.

  As for freedom and truth being mutually exclusive, I have no idea what you're talking about. I have a great deal of freedom these days, and I use that freedom to pursue truth wherever I find it. Life has its usual problems (middle age creeping up etc.) but life is good. Life will end in a few decades. I'm ok with that, as it's been the way of life for three billion years. Calm acceptance of that brings relief from the worry that religion brings.

  My email is open and my number is 970-206-1555. Do as you see fit.

  AlanF
• 

  one

  people justify working for a corrupt company,

  or supoort with their vote a corrupt political party

  or support a country (ussually her/his)even if the gov. and country as a whole is lying. They even go to war (kill) defending it.

  or they stay (support) with their partner (husband, wife or whoever) even if when they know they are not honest.

  they support their children even if they take ilegal drugs or whatever.

  they even pay taxes knowing fully well wher they money is going, mars, moon, middle east, you name it.

  they know if they are going to live not touching anything unclean they will have to move to another planet, or live in a vaccumm...

  some (specially children) can not stay out of trouble if they are not being watched an controlled wt style.

  A person staying jw or going back may show that they have more**self control** than many of us. And may be less egotistical than many of us being able to sacrify their freedom to keep peace.

  Life is not about pure logic, it should, it is about feelings or emotions whatever please you. THAT IS LOGIC TOO when you think about it. It please me to do something that please my wife/children/husband, even if what please them is not logic but it is logic that i please them.

  According to those who belevie in God, but against jw, support the idea that god supports mankind even if most of us (if not all) are assholes and corrupt. I am not suggeting that you send your hard earned money to the wt.

  The logic thing to do is not think too much about logic. By nature we are not logic in the strict sense of the word, why try to change.

  Another logic thing i should do is to stop now before i get into deep s.