Believe it or not, one, I sort of know what you're saying, and there is a way it makes sense. Or maybe that's just me reading your post the way I want to read it.
Dedalus
I'm thinking of applying for reinstatement
by Cygnus 74 Replies latest jw friends
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LoneWolf
This is quite a thread!
one ---
The logic thing to do is not think too much about logic. By nature we are not logic in the strict sense of the word, why try to change.
ROTFLOL!!! Enjoyed your post and the way you think. I think we’d get along quite well.
Another logic thing i should do is to stop now before i get into deep s.Alan ---
As for freedom and truth being mutually exclusive, I have no idea what you're talking about. I have a great deal of freedom these days, and I use that freedom to pursue truth wherever I find it. Life has its usual problems (middle age creeping up etc.) but life is good.
I must completely agree with you here. I find life good and exciting in spite of being constantly hemmed in by limitations of the religion, laws that make no sense, and many other things. (I was a self-employed contractor for years too, and know exactly what Cygnus is referring to about crabby personalities, shoddy work, crummy customers, etc., etc.)Farkel ---
You speak as though faith and logic are mutually exclusive, and I can’t agree. In fact the very reason that I do find life good and exciting is because I have defied the Society’s policies and applied logic to anything and everything I can, especially faith. I find continuity throughout, although I hope that you will not read into those words the thought that I know everything. I don’t. However, a dim outline of something vastly bigger than we are is beginning to come into view, and the little bits that I glimpse are utterly fascinating.
Please, too, do not read into this, that I feel I am some privileged character that has been given some special “dispensation of holy spirit” and am trying to make some name for myself. That’s hogwash. Instead I feel like I am some wanderer that by sheer luck has found a beautiful canyon and am exploring some of its nooks and crannies. It seems that every time I wander around a corner there is something that makes me want to jump up and down and yell “Holy cow! Do you see what I see?”
Those who think they've already determined their destinies are the most boring and arrogant people I've known.
And that in a nutshell is the problem in nearly all religion. All knowledge gained is usually twisted into or formulated in some way to flatter our egos. If we can back ourselves out of the equation, at least to the extent that it won’t color our findings, then it’s amazing what can be found.Mommy Dark ---
Good to see you again.
Borgfree ---
I keep hearing about these ex-witness conventions and “apostofests” and am somewhat curious about them. How many show up on average, what they consist of, etc.
joelbear
I do not find them intellectually corrupt. Indeed at the intellectual level they make a great deal of sense. Most of the pieces fit together logically. You are already aware of my thinking on the "justice question", which is one important piece that does not make sense. Its an important enough piece to keep me from going back. It involves both the manmade congregational judicial system and the divine justice system as explained by the Watchtower. Neither one make sense logically, nor do either have a sound scriptural basis. The society picks and chooses scriptures that describe the way they see justice as needed to be meted out both now by congregations and eventually by Jehovah. I find this to be their greatest crime. And since the story of the Bible is basically man committing a crime, paying a sentence, being bailed out and having to face trial on an individual basis, the issue of justice must be dealt with accurately or everything around it becomes moot.
Excellent! I agree with nearly all of it. The greatest problem is that they allowed their ego to get involved.
1. They got some knowledge.
2. That meant that God blessed them.
3. If God blessed them, then that must mean they are special.
4. If they are special, then they are holy.
5. If they are holy, then God’s spirit is helping and guiding them.
6. As it makes no mistakes, then they make no mistakes.
7. Therefore they cannot go back on what they’ve said, as then the whole house comes crashing down.
8. And so on.By their ego, they made the trap, set it, and caught themselves.
This whole situation makes me remember the scripture about how Jehovah puts hooks in Satan’s jaws and drags him forward to his destruction. Every time some small bit of progress in knowledge is made, Satan works overtime to corrupt it and forbid further thinking, which in turn triggers intellectual rebellion and further thought.
May Sarton once wrote to the effect that intellectual growth is necessary to humans for us to enjoy life, but that it is always painful. There’s a great deal of truth to that.
Cygnus ---
Note my comments to joelbear above.
I firmly believe from all I’ve seen and studied that Jehovah wants us to inquire and study and question and progress, and that this is on an individual basis, not something that is handed down from on high.
However, in these last 5 years since I quit the JWs, I have found NOTHING that is any better than what they have to offer. I have spent quite a lot of my time trying to convince myself that there are alternate possibilities that perhaps my passing from this plane of existence might result in something palatable that I can absorb as satisfactory, but it isn't working.
If my thoughts above are correct, then the reason that it isn’t working is that the answers that you are looking for are not found in the philosophies that exist today. We have vast quantities of knowledge (raw material) that can now be cranked into the things that we were taught, and that would change these dramatically. To do so, though, would take humility and an open mindedness to other’s views that many have a hard time maintaining.There are many I have seen express that there is a great peace that descends upon one when it is finally accepted that there is no paradise, etc. However, I see no difference between this sort of peace and the peace that a terminal cancer patient experiences at the very end of life after the stages of denial, anger, etc., are finally exhausted. I suppose that they would say that I am in the denial stage, but naturally, I deny that.
Seriously, though, I still see far too much evidence that it is true to give up on it. Until all these other possibilities are exhausted, I see no reason to reject it and would be intellectually dishonest in doing so.
Please listen to Siddhashunyata. Never compromise your conscience in order to find peace. You will then lose what little peace you have, along with the respect that even your enemies have for you (but won’t admit it). You will then have nothing but contempt from all who know of it. You will have destroyed yourself from within.
Again, this is an impressive thread.
LoneWolf
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Valis
Why just this morning I was thinking of reinstatement myself. Then I ate some more lead paint. You would have to be losing your mind to even consider such a thing. I suppose someone cold talk themselves into believing again, but could you do so with a clean conscience? The first time you watched a fellow brother or sister get shunned and lose a family, or die from lack of proper medical care, or listen to subtle and insidious lies based on some biblical pretext...would you not have the urge to stand up for the real truth? So much for that reinstatement....pass me that lead paint!
Sincerely,
District Overbeer
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TheStar
Life will end in a few decades. I'm ok with that, as it's been the way of life for three billion years. Calm acceptance of that brings relief from the worry that religion brings.
Alan, I feel that is the key to it all. You have to accept what life is, then you can truely live and be happy... accept the known and the unknown.
Edited to fix the darn quote.
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Valis
Sorry for the double post....
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Englishman
Cygnus,
I read your post and, just for a mo, I panicked.
Then I realised what had happened. Just like the man who asked his doctor to castrate him and realised, as he came out of the anaesthetic, that he meant to ask the doc to circumcise him, you had simply made a typing error.
What you want is for your DF'ing to be RENEWED, yes?
Englishman.
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borgfree
LoneWolf, You asked:
I keep hearing about these ex-witness conventions and “apostofests” and am somewhat curious about them. How many show up on average, what they consist of, etc.
There are quite a few now in different cities, states, and countries.
The biggest one I know of is in New Ringgold, Pennsylvania about the third week of October. I have never heard an actual count, but I am told there are about 300-400 in attendance.I am going to one in Pinecrest, California June 14-16. Dan Hall has that one. Last year was his first, and again there was no count given. I would estimate about 100-150 was there. It promises to be larger this year.
The conventions, that I know about, are Christian centered, but, I have met ex-jws at the different conventions with many different beliefs and opinions. The first one I ever attended had an ex-jw who now believes in reincarnation, another was in the Dawnists, and many other beliefs.
I have always observed, that all are welcome, and treated well, no matter what they believe. I will say again, for the benefit of some here, that they are Christian centered. Most there, will be Christian believers.
Borgfree
"You can complain because roses have thorns, or you can rejoice because thorns have roses." -Ziggy
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Yerusalyim
Cyg
DON'T DO IT. I'd hate to have to bring up the dog returning to it's vomit or demon getting 7 worse than itself scriptures dude. Tell the wifey if she wants to have company, she needs to invite people that won't mind associating with you. After all, SHE SLEEPS with you.
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"] -
Bridgette
Dear Cyg,
Just adding my two cents to the plethora here. Now, I know you don't want to join a group again(I can totally relate), but you are obviously missing SOMETHING. I will never again join an organization. However, I go through the phone book, read the little "events" sections in the newspaper, etc and float in and out of groups. Usually, for myself, it's religious or spiritually based (i.e., meditation groups, different church services). This serves several purposes. One, I get to do something forbidden by the borg--see things from others points of view. Two, I get to meet lots of different people (I rather like people, myself). Three, it stimulates me intellectually being exposed to different ideas (i.e., I come across a new thought--I like it--why? or I do not like it or believe it--why?).
I'm going to soon be popping in on a humanistic judaism class. I'm a little nervous about it. Judaism screams of angry bible god to me. However, upon further investigation, it's a nontheistic approach to judaism and the history/mythology of the bible. Should be interesting. I, like you, have always said if I returned to Christianity in any form, it would be Catholicism. They were the originals, afterall. Plus, they just have pretty services. I just wouldn't let my son be an alter boy, if you know what I mean! Then again, I allow my 9 year old daughter total autonomy over her spiritual life. She goes with me to events when she wants to, and sleeps in when she wants to. Our god is called Choice and her ahem I mean his holy spirit is freedom of thought.
For god's sake, man, get yourself some serious t-time! I'm married to an avid golfer and I insist that he get his quality golf time in!
Love,
B. -
LDH
Cyg,
wholeheartedly agreeing with Yeru. Your wife is at the bottom of the whole house of cards.
Either she chooses YOU over the JWs or she chooses them.
For her sake, it needs to be a very PAINFUL decision, not one she should have an easy time with. Therefore, if your actions are causing her to run to the JW--you are at least partially responsible for the situation.
You need to expose her to worldly people that are your friends. Let her see they are not all demonized perverts like the WBTS says they are.
((((((((((Ken))))))))))))
((((((((((Joel)))))))))))
(((((((((((Cyg)))))))))))I believe marriage is more holy than some bullshit religion, but that's just me. I bet you would be happier with your wife OUT than with you back IN.
Lisa
