abortion vs holocaust (page 42)

Band on the Run

quite a while ago I read a law review article on abortion laws. During the Middle Ages, abortions were not illegal. The only time the law became involved was when someone kicked a pregnant woman and caused her to abort. The woman's family could only make a claim after the baby quickened, which is kicking. Restricting abortion is a relatively new development.

You can believe whatever you want about abortion. The solution for you is clear: never have an abortion. This is a diverse society. Choice will be available. Roe has been around for decades. Keep your religious views to yourself. We are a secular nation.

I must admit that, feminist that I am, when I hear about some women having 15-25+ abortions, I am troubled. Prevention is so much simpler. My mom used to process health claims and a small portion of women had many abortion procedures. Most women are troubled by a single event. I could not believe what I was told. Perhaps sterilization becomes an option.

I once met a prostitute, addicted to crack and heroin, who had ten children removed from her custody by the state. Ten children were born during her drug crazed days. Finally, NY filed some special legal procedure and forced her to be sterlized. Some people aren't really human. They may look human but some moral compass is missing. I don't know how people in social service work do their jobs.

unstopableravens

band: i like you hate to see ppl destory there own lives. why are you troubled by abortion?

Band on the Run

It seems that logically a woman having 20 abortions is irresponsible. I may feel this b/c a potential lfor life is important to me. In fact, I know very few women who would not be troubled by so many abortions. I wish my mom never told me. Oh, the spread legs in the metal stirrups. UGH! A respect for the potential of life does not mean that I want the govt or some religion to control my body or the body of any woman. I may have respect for the potential life as a moral value but my political/legal training is that I am able to make such decisions by myself. Precisely b/c of the high control of Witnesses and the Roman Catholic Church, I want women to have choice.

Women's bodies are viewed as being owned by men throughout history. This is unfair. Personal autonomy is important. I have no religious view. Life begins at first breath. It always was so. Women should determine their own lives. We must worry about carrying the fetus, having it develop into a child. Birth killed and still kills many women. Birth control is a right, not a gift. Next, we must raise the children. No man ever has the worries a woman does. Men are removed. Our bodies means it is our decision. America is a secular society. Abortion is an issue best decided by individual women, not the govt or Pope. The only possible rolel for government is regulating abortions. Public health issues should be able to be addressed by the government.

mrhhome

The issue comes down to two questions. (1) When does life begin? (2) Under what circumstances is one justified to end a life?

To answer my own questions:

(1) There is a heart beat, neural activity, and substantial differentiation by the end of the first trimester. I believe that there is a recognizable human entity by week 7-8 of the pregnancy. Put differently, I think that an abortion at the end of the first trimester is too late. At the same time, I do not believe that there is anything wrong with the morning after pill.

(2) (a) If the mom's life is endangered, you have to choose between two lifes. It is Mom's choice. (b) In cases of rape or incent, one has a dillemma. The baby is innocent. However, the mom really had no choice in the matter. In this case, I think common sense dictates that we have to give mom a choice. At the same time, this opens a can of worms. Any woman who ends up with an unwanted baby is going to scream "rape." Of course, maybe that will teach guys to keep it in their pants. I stick with my answer. It is the mom's choice. (c) In cases where there is evidence that the baby has a fatal condition, I think that it is justified. I support euthanasia. This is no different. (d) In cases where the baby simply is not wanted, it is not justified.

If someone ends an innocent life without justification, it is murder. Sorry ladies. All other issues are secondary.

While I do NOT agree with raven on all points, I think that the basic premise is accurate. Why do we turn a blind eye to ending an innocent life in some circumstances and not others?

cofty

Any woman who ends up with an unwanted baby is going to scream "rape." - mrhhome

Wow. Are you sure you meant to say that out loud?

In cases where the baby simply is not wanted, it is not justified. - mrhhome

And yet you approve of the morning-after pill.

Unstop you can't brush off the fact that you approve of abortion in a certain situation. That is a massive difference from your position earlier in the thread.

Jgant has proposed similar situations but you will do anything to avoid difficult questions. You use dogma as an excuse to save you having to wrestle with difficult dilemmas.

shadow

These are not abortion pictures so I assume they are permissible. I believe comparison to Holocaust is appropriate.

conception

Conception

Step one of conception is when the sperm penetrates the egg to complete the genetic make-up of a human fetus. At this moment (conception), the sex and genetic make-up of the fetus begins. About three days later, the fertilized egg cell divides rapidly and then passes through the Fallopian tube into the uterus, where it attaches to the uterine wall. The attachment site provides nourishment to the rapidly developing fetus and becomes the placenta.

Baby's Development at 4 Weeks

After 4 weeks, the basic structures of the fetus have begun to develop into separate areas that will form the head, chest, abdomen, and the organs that are contained within them. Small buds on the surface will become arms and legs. A home pregnancy test should be positive at this stage of development (most tests claim positive results one week after a missed period).

Baby's Development at 8 Weeks

At 8 weeks, the fetus is about one-half an inch long (1.1cm). Facial features such as developing ears, eyelids, and nose tip are present. The limb buds are now clearly arms and legs, while the fingers and toes are still developing.

Baby’s Development at 12 Weeks

At 12 weeks, the fetus has grown to about 2 inches (4.4cm) in length and may begin to move by itself. The fingers and toes are discernible and the fetal heartbeat may be audible by Doppler ultrasound. The developing sex organs may be identified by ultrasound techniques.

Baby's Development at 16 Weeks

At 16 weeks, the fetus is about 4 and one-half inches long and resembles an infant; the eyes blink, the heartbeat is easier to locate, facial features (nose, mouth, chin and ears) are distinct, and the fingers and toes are clearly developed; the skin on the fingers and toes even have distinct patterns (fingerprints!). Women should be able to feel the uterus at about 3 inches (6.6 cm) below the belly button; this is the beginning of the "baby bump" (abdominal swelling due to an expanding uterus) in some women.

Baby's Development at 20 Weeks

At twenty weeks, the developing baby is about 6 inches long (13.2 cm) and may weigh about 10 ounces. The baby may begin to make movements that the mother can feel at about 19 to 21 weeks; this baby movement is termed "quickening". The baby at this stage of development can move its facial muscles, yawn, and suck its thumb. The expanding uterus at 20 weeks is felt at the level of the belly button.

It's Time for an Ultrasound

In the US, women that have prenatal care usually have an ultrasound done at 20 weeks to determine that the placenta is attached normally and that the baby is developing without any problems. The baby’s movements can be seen with Doppler imaging, and usually the sex of the baby can be determined at this time, so if you want to be surprised about the sex of your baby at delivery, let your doctor know before the Doppler ultrasound is started!

Shown here is a 2D ultrasound (inset) contrasted with a 4D ultrasound, both at 20 weeks.

Baby's Development at 24 Weeks

At 24 weeks, the baby may weigh 1.4 pounds and can respond to sounds. Doppler studies show the sound response by measuring movement and heartbeat rates. Sometimes the baby will develop hiccups that the mother can feel! The baby's inner ear canals are developed at 24 weeks, so researchers speculate the baby can sense its position in the uterus.

Baby's Development at 28 Weeks

At 28 weeks, the baby normally weighs about 2 and one-half pounds and has developed to the point that if the baby is birthed prematurely for any reason, the chances are good that the infant will survive, but usually would require a hospital stay. Your doctor may discuss signs of premature labor and suggest you (and your partner) take classes on what to do at the time of delivery of your full-term baby.