Who are the real WT puppet masters ?

by cookiemaster 82 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Dear Apog, thanks for your posts and clear thinking. As you say though, we will probably never know who is right and who is wrong on this.

    I imagine that some on the GB are far less deluded than others, and thus keep things sweet as far as legal are concerned, but I have no proof of that of course.

    What I observed over the years was the change that occured with guys as they climbed the ladder.

    From keen young preacher, to M.S, to Elder and maybe serve in Bethel, that keen , idealistic young man soon becomes a Company man, 100%. He sees the necessity of protecting the Org. from attack and from corrosion from within, and he sees this as more important than making disciples. He becomes judgemental and untrusting of the ordinary R&F JW's, who he treats with not very well concealed disdain.

    He is now ready if needed, to join the GB. He may retain a lot of belief, that it really is God's Org for example, but he knows how it works,and colludes with that, again 100%.

    The same process has probably been the experience of the guys in Legal and Finance, and in Writing.

    So, perhaps no great conspiracy of totally non-believing money-grubbers, but without doubt a co-operating to perpetuate the illusion which they know is just that.

    They know it is not what they present to the R&F, they know they are being careful to present a picture of the org that simply is not real.

    Believers, Captives of a Concept, whatever you may label them, they are still guilty of wicked deceit.

  • AndDontCallMeShirley
    AndDontCallMeShirley

    Considering the stilted nature of that translation, and the fact that all of the awkward wordings from the NWT seem to have been revised, I don't see any reason to assume that there was a legal reason for this one change

    Yeah, but didn't god direct the translation of the Rusty Sword, the original NWT? After all, according to WT, all other translations were so "corrupted" the NWT was needed to set everyone else straight.

    So how come god told WT to say "mentally diseased" when he really didn't mean it? And, it took Him 50+ years to correct WT.

    I still contend removing "mentally diseased" from the RNWT was to avoid further legal fallout. The fact that WT is on record recently denying they've ever used that term speaks volumes....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlTqvpy6i0Q

  • grumblecakes
    grumblecakes

    Flipper-agreed

    Adcms-whoa!!!! Thx for that video!

    Phizzy-yeah, ive observed the same evolution of a man rising in the borg.

    apog-do you still want to believe/be a jw? Just trying to understand where youre coming from.

  • metatron
    metatron

    The lack of evidence from Ray Franz is case closed for me. If he didn't see it or mention a higher directive, that's game over. Even if the WTS still had some leverage on him (are you kidding?), that doesn't mean he couldn't inadvertently expose a different governance.

    The tax controversy in France (past, now) suggested that the average Witness gave $60 a year (equivalent). Big freakin' deal. If global, that gets you shy of half a billion a year. No wonder they keep cutting stuff and stealing Kingdom Halls from publishers.

    metatron

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    I do believe Mr. Flipper is right about the kingdom hall remodeling scam. [...] My family puts themselves in very bad financial situations to travel across America to oversee projects worth tens of millions of dollars, for not one dime of reimbursment.

    Sorry to hear that. Yes, the Society has a pretty sweet arrangement, don't they? By getting free labor on construction and maintenance, and on refurbishment of old properties that they've bought, they have a serious advantage in the market when they sell the buildings later.

    apog-do you still want to believe/be a jw? Just trying to understand where youre coming from.

    No, I don't believe, I'm basically agnostic now. I'm just one of those people who wants to look at everything from both sides, and sometimes plays devil's advocate. I feel anger towards the people at the top of the org because I now know what they've known for years (as far as the weakness of the doctrines, and various scandals), but I've also seen a certain degree of genuine belief in the senior brothers I've gotten to know, so I guess I'm just trying to provide a little balance here.

    I also want to make sure that we keep our speculation within reason so that we don't scare off inquisitive Witnesses who want to learn more about the inner workings of their religious organization (which are definitely not covered in the brochure we're studying right now!).

    Yeah, but didn't god direct the translation of the Rusty Sword, the original NWT? [...] So how come god told WT to say "mentally diseased" when he really didn't mean it? [...] I still contend removing "mentally diseased" from the RNWT was to avoid further legal fallout.

    Could be, but your reasoning is non sequitur. Regardless of whether holy spirit was involved in the translation (which you and I are in agreement on), that doesn't change the fact that the GB wanted a simplified, modernized translation, and that expression was a prime example of the kind of thing they revised for readability. If you want to speculate on ulterior motives, what about the fact that the new NWT's OT+NT text is 10% shorter than the old one's? It's true that they have added more appendices, but I guess these RNWTs are replacing the big Reference Bibles too, so that's gotta be a big savings for them.

    The fact that WT is on record recently denying they've ever used that term speaks volumes....

    I'm not sure what you're referring to, but I assume this concerns things they've said in the literature, not the Bible, which, regardless of any recent revisions, can be clearly demonstrated to say "mentally diseased" up until 2013/2014, so it would hardly be an effective cover-up.

  • cookiemaster
    cookiemaster

    Wow guys, this discussion just exploded in a good way. So many ideas and replies. I wish I could answer all of you but unfortunately I don't have the time.

    Mr. Flipper I have to say that I agree with most of your ideas. Mr. Apog I only agree with some of your ideas, nevertheless you make sense. I too wondered that if this is all a conspiracy, then when would one get initiated into the con. It's most likely that most of the upper management of the borg still somewhat believes that they work for god's organization, just in their own corporate, profit oriented way. Just as some medieval popes used to poison and assasinate their rivals while also believeing in god it's possible that this also is the case with the WT. Nevertheless, I can't help but wonder where does the money from just the past 20 years went. Even if they just had a few hundred million a year in profit, that would still amount to billions. Not to take into account the recent real estate sold in Brooklyn for a bilion. So does all that money just lay around. Who uses it ?

    And yes we're speculating, but we're doing so based on everything we know so far about this corporation, which impacted our lives so greatly. I'll always wish to find out the real truth about how the borg really works. We, all ordinary members, never got an insight of the inner workings of WT. Also, since they're a cult that uses mind control (this is undisputable, so much evidence), that uses specific words only known by the members of the cult to maintain control and a we vs. the world mentality, do you think they have people that are proficient in psychology to help them maintain that control ? It's not like you create a brain washing cult without actually meaning to do so.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    The money question is a good one. I don't have an answer, and I don't know if anyone can make guesses at their income and expenditures that are accurate enough to be able to figure out where their money is going, and whether they might be making beaucoup bucks or even be in financial trouble. It might not seem like that is possible, but cutting down on meeting times and literature page counts is a drastic measure to take without good reason.

    It's not like you create a brain washing cult without actually meaning to do so.

    I'm not so sure about this. Some people have a combination of charisma and a desire for power that just kind of does the work for them. Did Hitler know psychology, or Jim Jones? They were idiot savants, in my opinion, and their area of "savantitude" was controlling people.

    Certain aspects of WT teaching might seem intentionally devious, like discouragement of higher education, but I personally think that the stance on college is as simple to explain as this joke:

    Patient: Doctor, it hurts when I do this.

    Doctor: So don't do it!

    The Society has waffled on education at times, but they've now gotten enough data to see that when kids go away to college, they frequently "fall out of the truth". So they don't want kids to go to college. The points some have made of how the higher education teaches the kids critical thinking, and how outside knowledge is dangerous to a cult, could be completely tangential to the simple possibility that the GB sees something that hurts and tells the JWs not to do it. If they are true believers then they believe that Satan is trying to mislead people with various aspects of his system. They also know the Bible verse about bad association. Thus you can entirely explain the anti-education stance even while assuming total sincerity on their part.

    Just to be clear, I can't say that there is not an intentional, scheming aspect to what the Society does. There might be. I just see a plausible way that they could be sincere and still become effective at controlling people. After all, the current GB could very well be as conditioned as we are, by the previous generation of the WT leaders.

    Imagine if every time you tried to go in a closet at home as a child, your parents did something frightening like shouting at you or making loud noises. You could grow up afraid of closets. One day, having become a parent, your child goes to open a closet door, and you reflexively yell at them, "Stay out of there!" When they ask you why, you can only say, "Listen to your parents, junior, closets are dangerous."

    (Apologies to Christians for the rest of this post, but I'm talking to cookiemaster, who has said he's atheist.) The very existence of religion in this world is predicated on superstitions that get carried from generation to generation, isn't it? Can you believe that we actually once believed that Jesus was an angel who came to earth and healed people miraculously, and not one word of this was recorded outside the Gospels? We believed it because lots of other people believed it before us, and we figured, "There's no way they could all be wrong!"

    When we went door to door, we were telling falsehoods to people, and sometimes even dissembling in order to get people to listen longer ("We're not looking to convert people, we're just here to discuss the Bible with people"...). Yet it came from a genuine place in us, didn't it? There was no intentional pyramid scheme being carried out, where we knew we had to convert x people to make back our own investment. We thought we were doing the right thing.

    As I've suggested before, the Society could be viewed as a sort of organism that adapts in order to survive, just as religion is a sort of mind-virus that travels from host to host. Viruses don't care much about their hosts and organizations don't care much about their constituents. I'm willing to bet none of us have ever intentionally gotten someone sick by sneezing on them while we had a cold; but we've passed on the germs anyway.

    In this case, the analogy to religion also serves as a partial explanation of what might give the Society a cult-like characteristic. The leaders (and followers!) of the org are acting to preserve not only their position in the structure, but also their belief system. After all, what does it say about the truth if the org. starts shrinking drastically before the end comes? If people come back from college asking difficult questions? For their own sake, if no one else's, the GB could discourage higher education just to stay sane.

  • nonjwspouse
    nonjwspouse

    Apog, the WTBTS has had no problems rewriting thier own history, even when it is in hard copy. Remember 1975 for instance? Both in written form and plenty of talks. It does not stop them form changing thier own written history. The "faithful" then follow along and put it into the "memory hole".

    The R&F generally are completely genuine. It is the upper "management" of the corperation that the genuiness begins to get infected with power, and need to contro the R&F at any cost. Those in the upper Mgt do have an element of genuine for the most part in my belief, but they have to do massive mental gymnastics in order to preserve any of it. The need for the power over the R&F is definitly an infectious corruption.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Yes, it was devious of them to try to put it on the flock that "some of you jumped to conclusions", but people shift the blame all the time, it's a knee-jerk reaction in most cases. Changing the Truth book could either be viewed as Orwellian history rewriting, or a simple updating of the book, since by the reprint in 1981, the 1975 info shown in those scans was clearly outdated and needed to be replaced. It's all a matter of perspective. The fact that, as you mention, the rank and file go right along with the "1975 wasn't a teaching" act demonstrates that misguided sincerity can explain a lot of duplicity.

  • extractor
    extractor

    Freemasonry.

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