Good response, Apognophos. Again, I'm reminded of what Slimboyfat said, that being we shouldn't underestimate just how much the leadership within the organization really believes this stuff.
Who are the real WT puppet masters ?
by cookiemaster 82 Replies latest jw experiences
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Apognophos
1. The doctrine helps the oganization maintain control over members . It helps the illusion of seperating and elevating them in thier own eyes, which can be powerful motivator.
This could be true. Perhaps it encourages a martyr mentality which in turn encourages solidarity. I just wonder if it does more harm to membership than good. Plenty of Bible studies have gotten hung up on a few key issues in Witness doctrine, and this is one of them.
2. I believe a member of the GB might save the life of a spouse or themselves if needed with a blood transfusion.
If they did, it would have to be carried out in super-secret. Normally friends visit someone in the hospital, so it would be hard to hide.
But remember, the rules keep getting changed/added to so much that it is possible now for a JW to have a transfusion ( though so many don't have a clue) . Isn't it back in writing as a "concience matter" again?
No, only certain fractions are a conscience matter. But for decades before the change (ca. 2000), no blood products at all were allowed. The people who came up with this teaching were, presumably, binding themselves with it too.
3. Not sure what you even mean with this one.
Child sacrifices in the Ancient Near East (and elsewhere) = no-blood teaching for Witnesses. I was encouraging all to think about what the motivation of a priest was in those days, because if we understand that, we might have an insight into the mind of the WT leadership.
The priests gained massive power ( if they did indeeed cause this) There is no greater power that leading a parent to do such evil , because afterwards, anyone thinking it might be wrong would probablly want to commit suicide ( or murder) from the huge guilt.
You're assuming that children were a big deal to the ancients. They weren't, because so many of them died in childhood that they didn't get attached to them. They just kept making babies until enough of them lived that they had a full family. Obviously the sacrifices were still considered to be taking something very valuable from the people. I just don't think the sacrifices worked on that kind of psychological level that you're suggesting.
It was an appeasement to what they feared was an angry god. The greater the sacrifice, the greater the appeasement, and for a people who depended on their local land for survival, the unpredictable weather was scary and capricious; this was how they coped with their anxiety. Likewise, the resurrected ANE god YHWH worshipped by the JWs is a demanding god who might even ask for your firstborn in exchange for not destroying you at Armageddon.
I have a hard time believing that this teaching could be an intentional plot by anyone in power, though it's worth pointing out that a number of the leaders at the time that the no-blood teaching was instituted did not have children of their own (like F. Franz and Knorr, I believe), which at least made it harder for them to relate to the plight of the rank and file members. But I also think they believed in this fearsome god themselves and held themselves to the same standards.
That being said, I think the later loosening of the no-blood policy is more damning than the original teaching. Either they allowed fractions as a result of legal concerns, or as a result of a new generation of leadership getting older and needing surgery, and wanting to give themselves some leeway (or both). Either way it brings into question whether they really still believe the teaching is Biblical, and if they don't, well, if I believed in Hell, I'd say this gives them a first-class ticket there.
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DNCall
I believe this to be a very important thread.
From what I have observed (from over 50 years as a Witness) the comments of jgnat (overview) and Apognophos (detailed) are, to me, the most accurate. Since the time that I had seen the Organization up close (through personal acquaintance with higher-ups in the Rutherford and Knorr administrations as well as members of the GB, Writing and Service Departments during the Jaracz period), it has morphed and adapted. Since the days of Russell, doctrinal changes and policy changes have always been in reaction to something human. I know of no exeception to this.
The checks and balances alluded to by jgnat, have evolved out of necessity and have contributed to the Oganization's survival in recent years. In theory, the Organization will continue to make any changes it sees as necessary for survival, regardless of which corporation, branch, body, department or committee comes up with the idea. But in practice, so long as it holds to its tradition, changes prohibited by that tradition may be the very changes it needs to make, in order to survive.
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Phizzy
As I said before, the guys making these reactive changes know what they are doing, they know God's Spirit is not guiding them, if it were they would be pro-active, ahead of the game.
They know they are lying when they claim to be "God's Spirit directed Organization".
What does that say about their character, and motive ?
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Apognophos
Since the days of Russell, doctrinal changes and policy changes have always been in reaction to something human. I know of no exeception to this. The checks and balances alluded to by jgnat, have evolved out of necessity and have contributed to the Oganization's survival in recent years.
Thanks for your comments. Though I wonder, if the changes have always been in reaction to something practical, what purpose did the blood teaching serve? It's hard for me to see how it could have been anything other than a (misguided) attempt to follow a commandment in the Bible. And as we know, this teaching has become an albatross around their neck.
Another member here once astutely pointed out that when the teaching was introduced (during WWII, I believe), they probably expected the system to end very soon. They could never have anticipated that, before the end would come, millions of Witnesses would be subject to the terror of the no-blood rule.
They know they are lying when they claim to be "God's Spirit directed Organization".
What does that say about their character, and motive ?
They might very well be lying, yes. But remember the stories of God's servants in the Bible? Some of them messed up big time and were still supposedly directed by God. Perhaps the GB are giving themselves the benefit of the doubt; "we don't always know His exact will, but we're trying our best to ascertain and follow it until the end comes (and dear Lord, I hope the end comes soon)". If they were never initiated into any kind of knowing conspiracy, then there's a chance that, after having risen through the ranks, they've found themselves trapped in an unseen web and are desperately trying to make sense of it all through rationalization.
I just have one final point to make, which is that, at some point in each of their lives, a Governing Body member declared himself to be anointed. Was this, and all their years of service, just a lie to allow them to rise to the top? Or is it possible that they had some kind of genuine experience that made them think they were anointed? I'm not sure I can properly understand the mind of a person who believes that he is one of that chosen few, or how that experience could bolster a person's faith in their religion; perhaps their definition of reality is a bit different from ours and we all underestimate the strength of their self-delusion.
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Anyway, that was my attempt at being a devil's advocate and trying to see things from both sides. In truth, when I attended the last AGM, I felt leery of the GB members as they spoke. It seemed like they were trying to go on a charm offensive, and it felt disingenuous to me. Even Morris cracked a joke or two, which felt out of character considering that his personality is rather reminiscent of Dick Cheney. It was almost like they were pandering to the audience and saying, "Look at us, your masters, aren't we swell guys? Don't you want to follow our leadership, 'whether or not it seems sound from a human or strategic standpoint'?"
It's hard to see how this kind of unified approach to winning over the audience could come from a genuine place. It felt more like they were trying to compensate for the religion's increasing lack of substance and decreasingly plausible prophetic predictions about the end.
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DNCall
Apognophos:
The blood teaching was branding, supporting the idea that JWs are unique and thus the only true religion. "Only Jehovah's Witnesses use the name Jehovah, don't celebrate birthdays, refuse blood transfusions . . . "
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flipper
A very important thread to be sure. DN CALL called that accurately enough. But I still sense quite an air of gullibililty and naivety in the comments of certain posters on this thread which seem to ignore obvious criminal attributes of WT leaders - many of these actions have been very well documented. It seems some here are giving an " out " for the WT leaders based on their missapplication of " Bible principles " or " lack of understanding ". I mean, come on. Should we form a JC for these WT leaders and see if they " repent in sackcloth and ashes " and on bended knee beg for the saving of their alleged " priveleges " so they just get " reproved " instead of DFed ? Give me a break. Ain't gonna happen. The same rules that apply to the rank and file Jehovah's Witness DO NOT apply to the WT Society higher ups and representatives - whether the GB , Circuit Overseers, District Overseers , even elders in many cases.
As a proof of my point : I can think of 2 GB members right off the top of my head who molested minors or tampered sexually with young Bethelite men- Greenlees and Chitty- who were sent away from Bethel on " special assignment " instead of police authorities being called in to investigate. Also- allegedly- while Ted Jaracz was alive it was alleged that he molested one Pat Garza who even confronted him at Bethel over this atrocity years later. And walked off ignoring her. Pat Garza died without receiving any justice in the matter. Oh yes, and by the way this was the same Ted Jaracz who fought against Lloyd Barry so much in the early 1990's about releasing the articles on child abuse in the Awake magazine ! Interesting coincidence ? I think not. And yes, once again this was the SAME Ted Jaracz who commented in approximately 1980 that " the needs of the WT organization outweigh and are more important to protect than the individual needs of the brothers and sisters. " I guess Ted just "misunderstood" the scriptures, eh ? Uh-huh.
More proof of my point are : Malawi deaths of thousands of Jehovahs Witnesses. Who was liable ? WT Society leaders. Rampant child abuse unreported to police authorities with resulting thousands of abused JW children as a result. Who is liable ? WT Society leaders with their " report to our legal team " first so they can determine and figure out HOW the law should or should not have access to information in order to prosecute a JW or the WT Society for the negligence. So WT leaders can be the law to determine it- not the police authorities set up by " Caesar " which they are told to obey in Romans 13 or whatever. Hypocrites is what WT leaders are through and through protecting an organization AT ALL COSTS. Even if childhood innocence or lives are lost.
And oh yes: The blood transfusion issue. O.K. Apognophos - Interesting comparison you make with child sacrifices and the " no blood transfusions " of todays WT Society. But actually some things you state just prove MY point I'm making about the lack of caring and irresponsibility of WT leaders towards it's 7 million members. Your comment, " You're assuming the children were a big deal to the ancients. They weren't, because many of them died in childhood that they didn't get attached to them . " Kind of a generalizing statement I believe but I digress. But your comparison to the WT Society IS accurate because the WT Society DOES NOT value children that they have allowed to die by no blood transfusions OR being molested totally losing their childhood because of it !
The 2nd sentence in your next statement is rather odd in my opinion, " Obviously the sacrifices were still considered to be taking something very valuable from the people. I just don't think the sacrifices worked on THAT KIND OF PSYCHOLOGICAL LEVEL that you're suggesting. " WTF ? Let me get this straight- parents of children whose lives were snuffed out by child sacrifice weren't too adversely affected by it ? So I guess due to the mind control tactics of the WT Society - many JW parents have been willing to sacrifice their children to the " God of the WT Society, i.e. the governing body " without blinking an eye- correct ? So repeating the thread title here- WHO are the real WT puppet masters who make these 7 million people DO criminal actions of killing their own children- essentially ?
Might it be WT leaders AND their financially well endowed cronies who stand a LOT to lose by being exposed in a criminal way ? Answer me this Apogophos- When the WT Society CHANGED their blood transfusion policies to allow " blood fractions " - WHO was held liable criminally for the 50 to 60 years of TOTAL no blood transfusions allowed in which many thousands of JW's by being " obedient " were led to their deaths or their children died by following WT Society directions on no blood allowed ? The answer : NO ONE was held liable criminally . And why ? Because the WT organization GETS AWAY with criminal activities because they hide it under the disguise of " religion " so nefarious activities can continue on unabated or unaccounted for. Whether those activities are not sharing their financial records with rank & file Jehovah's Witnesses or those activities involve their " secret " ways of protecting child molesters or not recompensing JW families who may ave lost loving children or parents by not taking life saving blood transfusions to save their lives !
I stand by what I continue to say on this thread- WT Society leaders , whether the legal entity, the GB, or WHOMEVER is running the show - ARE responsible for the deception, destruction, deaths, and ignorance of the 7 million JW members on the planet. And for that- WT Society is a criminal organization with a lot to answer for. O.K. I'm out of thoughts right now. But please everybody- please chew on what I just wrote. And think to yourself how much negative occured in YOUR life due to these WT leaders continuing without ANY check system to abuse their power over us ? Peace out, love to you all, Mr. Flipper
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wearewatchingyouman
Who are the real WT puppet masters?
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sir82
It is of course much more fun to think that the WT is controlled by "puppet masters" and there is a grand conspiracy at work here.
It is far more likely, however, that they are just idiots who believe their own hype.
The quote mining, misleading propaganda, etc. is quite likely to be their efforts at "protecting the sheep" from "evil apostate reasoning".
They definitely view the typical JW as too stupid and/or weak in the faith to withstand virtually any contrary thought - so in their minds, their decptions are for the "greater good" of "preserving the flock".
Well that's my opinion anyway.
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Xanthippe
Personally I think that doublethink is probably the problem here, the act of simultaneously accepting two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct. It is almost the opposite of cognitive dissonance whereby a person is able to hold two vastly different ideas in their head but not find it difficult to live with. Politicians do it all the time, convince themselves that they are devoting their lives to serving their country when they are really self-serving. I think the GB and many elders use doublethink, something that is very bad for your mental health, hence their organisation is becoming crazier by the year.