The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty 2596 Replies latest jw experiences

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    I can't believe how desperate some people have to get in order to defend their beliefs, it is sincerely sad to see. FHN you are smarter than that and we are talking about millions of dead people.

    Snare, do you even know what my beliefs are? If you're thinking that I am a Christian, then please, take note: I am not.

    Snare, realistically, people are going hug right up to the coastline. For using the fact that the occasional tsunami comes and drowns people who live at the coastline, to prove atheism though, it doesn't work. I can understand the line of thought. Why? Why do things like this happen and kill many people at once and leave distruction? We understand somewhat, why tsunamis happen. We also understand that they destroy human settlements and life within a certain distance of the coast. People have known about "tidal waves", hurricanes, typhoons, cyclones, tornados, earthquakes for centuries. It's very simple: pay heed to history because if you don't, it's destined to repeat its self. Now, if I decide I'm moving back to the coastline, I can make a decision to buy a house right on the coast, or I can buy 50 miles inland. The closer I move to the coast, the more I up my chances of being stranded and drowning should a hurricane hit. If I choose to buy a dog, I up my chances of being bit by a dog. It's simplistic to deduce that there isn't a god because nature roars or dogs bite.

    What you call desperation, is actually people who find the existence of god(s) more logical than the inexistence of god(s). People that find the existence of everything, the super complexities of the material and conscious world, unexplainable by the godless theory. Self awareness alone, I find to be unexplainable with the atheistic theories. For me, the strictly materialistic person is capable of some pretty incredible, even magical, thinking to dream that conscious, intelligent, self awareness could ever be explained through the big bang and evolution, by themselves. It would be egotistical really, for any of us to think that we are the only intelligent beings, that only beings who happen to have bodies made from material, that we can touch or see, in this dimension, can be real.

    Atheists aren't alone among people who reason and think very deeply about science and life. We don't all look at what goes on in this world and draw the same conclusions. I think atheism is incredible, but I understand how people come to that conclusion. I do not agree with the atheistic conclusion, but it is valid, even if simply because people come to different conclusions. Viva la difference. As long as people aren't hurting each other or nature, I'm fine with the difference.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Tammy - Sophistry at its worse.

    Theism appears to have no answer to why god passively observed the violent deaths of a quarter of a million men, women and children.

    All your bluster and judging of motives contributes nothing to the conversation apart from publicly demonstrating that you have nothing to offer.

    I am very much open to a reasonable answer but so far we have tried 15 answers and found them all to be vacuous.

    Your brand of religion that denigrates the value of human life with empty promises of heaven is especially repugnant. I believe in life - yours is a cult of death.

    I'm tempted to ask why you clearly lack the fruitage of the spirit but that would be too far off topic.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    Cofty, I don't blame tsunami victims for their own deaths. The tsunami, coupled with being on the coastline when the tsunami hits, these circumstances cause death. Are you saying there is something beyond that, causing those deaths? You don't believe in the supernatural, so then what can it be, besides nature and circumstance?

    As for Adam, I've read enough of his posts. I don't agree that his opinion on this kind of subject is worth reading.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    Any answer that does not agree with what you want to hear, will be vacuous to you.

  • cofty
    cofty

    to prove atheism though, it doesn't work. - FHN

    Nobody has made that connection. That would be facile. I have repeated this at least 4 times.

    The tsunami does not prove there is no god.

    Are you saying there is something beyond that, causing those deaths?

    No.

    Its obvious you don't read before you type. Don't feel bad, many of the believers in this thread have done the same thing.

    The conversation is about the fact that natural evil raises a difficult question for theism.

    We are investigating if there might be a reasonable answer. So far there doesn't seem to be.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Any answer that does not agree with what you want to hear, will be vacuous to you.

    I have responded to all 15 answers so far. If you think I have misjudged any of the answers please explain why.

    If you just want to rant, go do it on another thread, people are trying to think here.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    Its obvious you don't read before you type. Don't feel bad, many of the believers in this thread have done the same thing.

    Atheists read all of the comments?

    What you are calling natural evil, is basically nature and circumstance. It's possible, very possible that neither you, nor I are going to understand these things before we reach the end of our lives. Some things are mysteries to us now. When I was a child, I thought I had to know the answers to all of life's questions. I was too young to understand that there aren't answers, that we are privy to, for all of life's questions. Sadly, when I was a teenager and very vulnerable after the death of my brother, some people came along who claimed they knew the answers. They worked on me for most of a year, answering question, after question. Now I understand that if anyone thinks he or she can ever find all of the answers, he or she might as well tattoo the words: Control Me. Please. right across the forehead. I don't know how God participates or doesn't participate when it comes to things like tsunamis and their aftermaths. I'm not going to pretend to.

    I recall being at the funeral of my ten year old friend. She had died in a housefire. One of the church ladies tried to comfort me by telling me that God saw the prettiest flower in his garden and decided to pick her and take her home with him. I remember thinking, "I appreciate that you are trying to comfort me, but that's a silly explanation for what happened to Ann." I knew that God had nothing to do with my friend's death. I was ten years old at the time.

  • tec
    tec

    Weasel word in this isn't there:

    Theism appears to have no answer to why god passively observed the violent deaths of a quarter of a million men, women and children.

    He ALREADY acted. From the start... before any of this even happened, and He knows what the end IS. Just because He has not acted as you demand that He act in order to conform to your idea of what God should be, means what?

    You expect that as God He should know how to act... and then fail to grasp that He does and has.

    Your brand of religion that denigrates the value of human life with empty promises of heaven is especially repugnant.

    And here is a problem. You are picking and choosing what you want to promote your anti-theist agenda. Like the PROMISE (not empty) of LIFE in the Kingdom (not heaven) denigrates the value of human life? How exactly does it do that?

    I mean... if at work, you are promised a bonus for working hard or for overtime, does that denigrate the work that you are doing while you work? Does the bonus (or reward) somehow make your work less?

    Cofty, you'll play along with the idea that God exists.... in order to blame him for not preventing death; but then you will dismiss the part about God that has Him providing LIFE, and the resurrection.

    You are the one tied up in knots here. Blame God... oh, but there is no God;... believe what you think might prove him to be unloving, but dismiss what might prove Him to the exact opposite.

    I believe in life - yours is a cult of death.

    My faith is all about Life. My faith is IN THE Life. Christ... who is the resurrection and the life.

    Life now... and life in the Kingdom at the resurrection. The one does not denigrate the other. That is the jw in you speaking perhaps, as they may put off livng this life, waiting for the next. My Lord does not teach that, and I follow Him. Love, serve, do, forgive, give to those in need, etc, etc. All right here and right now. Working now... resting later.

    So I do not treat life callouslly, a statement that your condemnation of me and my faith depends upon. That might be what YOU did in your former faith... but as I have now seen some of what your former faith entails, I can see that about it. The jw one and the 'born again' one. Your former faith might have been a 'cult of death' and all about fear and condemnation and hellfire (and again, you had no problem accepting that billions would suffer for eternity in hellfire, but a quarter of a million people dying in a tsunami... a death that these can be resurrected FROM... is what did you in)... but that is not my faith. I used to think you might just be lying to toss out insults, but now I think you may really believe these accusations that you throw, but they are all based on what you once had your faith in; and not based on the Truth.

    Because it is not the same, Cofty.

    I'm tempted to ask why you clearly lack the fruitage of the spirit but that would be too far off topic.

    You mean things like love, hope, faith, forgivness, mercy, patience, endurance, etc, etc?

    You might rather ask yourself why you were lacking such things in your former "faith"... if your faith truly was from the Spirit.

    But that is for you to examine.

    For me, I will ask my Lord show me where I lack, and where I do lack, I will ask Him to grant me more of whatever fruit I am lacking IN... and/or cover me in the places that I DO lack, and DO fail.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • bohm
    bohm

    FHN: What you are calling natural evil, is basically nature and circumstance.

    Here is my basic problem:

    Suppose I was walking in a forrest. I see a man who has tripped and broken a leg. I have a cellphone and I know I have cell-phone cover. The man yell at me to call for rescue, but I deside to keep walking knowing it is unlikely anybody else will walk in this part of the forrest for the next few days.

    What do you think of me now? Did I do something wrong? What would you think if I at the same time claimed I was the most moral person on the planet?

    I could say: "What happened to the man was nature and circumstances. He desided to walk in the forrest, and it was nature which caused the path he was walking on to be slippery such that he tripped and broke his leg. For those reasons my inactions mean nothing."

    Does that sound like a resonable explanation for my inaction?

    In fact, i would think even LESS of a person who used such an excuse. It sound completely crazy.

    Or I could tell you: "You dont know everything about me. Perhaps there is some reason I kept on walking and you are just not smart enough to figure it out".

    Would that really convince you I did right? Because I am sorry to say it sound like a load of arrogant bollocks to me.

    (Edited).

  • cofty
    cofty

    What you are calling natural evil - FHN

    It's not my phrase. I don't even like the phrase but it happens to be what theologians call bad stuff that isn't casued by people. I have used it becuase its familiar to beleivers.

    We have already tried the "Its a mystery defense"...

    Nobody is saying god caused the tsunami - well apart from Unstop and Pat Robinson.

    The question is so simple I'm puzzled why I have had to repeat it for you so many times.

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