edx-Course --> Early Christianity: The Letters of Paul

by fastJehu 44 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  NeonMadman

  Interesting Neon, but we could swap "experts" who have an agenda, like the pro Jesus writers you quote, with some I could come up with that do not agrree, all day long.

  My point was , as I said, that the Jesus stories are not unique, they bear significant similarities with other myths and legends, and they are equally unprovable.

  It sounds like you are saying, then, that we can't really know anything at all reliably about history. After all, there can always be experts on either side of an issue, and nothing can be proven. I'm not prepared to buy into that level of hyper-skepticism. I think that the historical evidence for Jesus is pretty compelling, unless you start with a presupposition that the supernatural can't happen. What events in ancient history are better documented than the life of Jesus? Many events of ancient history that are less documented than that of Jesus are held to be unquestionably true, but the life of Jesus is questioned because of the presupposition of naturalism (and, possibly, the fact that acceptance would carry some moral requirements).

  A lot of your arguments are quite difficult to take my friend, i.e "oral tradition was very reliable in those days". just think about that statement, and the fallacy jumps out.

  I'm not sure it does, because I'm not seeing it. Are you suggesting that the statement is fallacious because oral tradition is inherently unreliable? If so, you're begging the question.

  I'd refer you again to Holding's work on this topic: http://www.tektonics.org/ntdocdef/orality01.html. I suppose you can dismiss it as 'just another expert,' but I think his arguments are compelling.
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  Witness My Fury

  Here's Bart Ehrmans book for download in various formats inc PDF:

  https://archive.org/details/Prof.BartEhrman-MisquotingJesus

  Some may find it useful
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  bohm

  Bohm: I simply argue the description of certain events taking place in year 70 imply the book was written after year 70 with high probability.

  NeonMadman: Perhaps you should inform me as to how you think I should respond to this statement. It's pretty much a bald assertion, based on the concept that prophecy doesn't happen, therefore any writing that tells of a given event, even if that writing claims to be recording a genuine prophecy, must be regarded as having been written after the event in question.

  It would not make sense to discuss the other points if we cannot agree on this. I find your answer puzzling. I can only interpret your non-acceptance of the statement as genuinely meaning you do not think it is a correct inference to draw, yet that seem absurd. I can provide a bayesian argument for the inference, but I think i will first ask you this:

  Suppose someone showed you a letter. The letter described the events of 9/11 2001 at some detail (kidnapped planes being flown into WTC1 and 2 and the pentagon on 9/11 2001). According to your way of determining these things, would you say it was highly probable the letter was written after 9/11 2001?

  Also for the 3rd time, I dont know how I can say this so it become clear to you, but I dont say it is 100% certain prophecy does not happend, please stop ascribing this view to me.
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  NeonMadman

  But we do have solid facts, eyewitness accounts and physical evidence about the Titanic.

  we have nothing of the sort for even the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

  We certainly have documents that claim to be eyewitness accounts of the life of Jesus. They are called the Gospels. That actually seems to be the issue under discussion in this thread doesn't it?

  I'm kind of amazed at the sweeping, almost dogmatic statements I'm seeing in this thread (not directing this specifically at you), as if every position taken by skeptical scholars was unquestionable, and as if conservative theistic scholarship didn't even exist. To say that there is "nothing of the sort" for Jesus again just begs the question, assuming that the Gospels are unreliable. So far the only "evidence" I've seen to demonstrate the unreliability of the Gospels is the fact that they mention events of 70 CE, therefore they must have been written after that date. The possibility that true prophecy, as claimed in the Gospels, might actually exist, is dismissed out of hand. Which, again, is what we've been talking about at length.
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  Phizzy

  Neon,

  " What events in ancient history are better documented than the life of Jesus?"

  What documents do you refer to ?

  And as to oral tradition, how can we possibly know it is reliable ?
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  NeonMadman

  Suppose someone showed you a letter. The letter described the events of 9/11 2001 at some detail (kidnapped planes being flown into WTC1 and 2 and the pentagon on 9/11 2001). According to your way of determining these things, would you say it was highly probable the letter was written after 9/11 2001?

  I assume we are discussing here a letter that is claimed by someone to be written before 9/11? If so, it depends. Was the letter written by someone claiming to be a prophet, or claiming to describe the message of a prophet? If so, and if I dismiss the letter as being post-9/11 on the basis that prophecy can't happen (or is so rare that no individual case of it can be pinned down), then it seems that I am begging the question. To the extent I am skeptical of the prophet or of prophecy in general, then I might well conclude that the letter was post-9/11. But if I accept the possibility that the prophet could be for real, then I must reserve judgment on the dating of the letter until I have evaluated the prophet for reliability.

  Also for the 3rd time, I dont know how I can say this so it become clear to you, but I dont say it is 100% certain prophecy does not happend, please stop ascribing this view to me

  I'm not trying to ascribe that view to you. You acknowledged earlier that you might accept the idea that prophecy could be real, but rare. I've been trying to address both that position and the more skeptical position that prophecy is impossible. It's not my intent to put words in your mouth by doing so, and I apologize if I've been confusing. Actually, I had kind of assumed that you acknowledged the possibility of real (but rare) prophecy more for the sake of argument than because you really believed that such things might exist.

  Just the same, if you do believe that genuine prophecy is possible, I am wondering if there is any instance in history that you think might represent an example thereof?
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  Viviane

  So far the only "evidence" I've seen to demonstrate the unreliability of the Gospels is the fact that they mention events of 70 CE, therefore they must have been written after that date. The possibility that true prophecy, as claimed in the Gospels, might actually exist, is dismissed out of hand.

  The onus is on you and Gospels to prove themselves true. I've never seen an example of real, actual prophecy being proven true like what's claimed by Bible believers. Do you have an example?
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  bohm

  Neon: I assume we are discussing here a letter that is claimed by someone to be written before 9/11?

  No, I intended both the statement the way they were written, does that influence your answer?

  Neon: You acknowledged earlier that you might accept the idea that prophecy could be real, but rare. I've been trying to address both that position and the more skeptical position that prophecy is impossible.

  Since we both believe prophecies are possible, I think it would make the conversation much more clear if we did not concern ourselves with a view neither of us hold.

  It's not my intent to put words in your mouth by doing so, and I apologize if I've been confusing. Actually, I had kind of assumed that you acknowledged the possibility of real (but rare) prophecy more for the sake of argument than because you really believed that such things might exist.

  I do not. It is really what I believe.

  Just the same, if you do believe that genuine prophecy is possible, I am wondering if there is any instance in history that you think might represent an example thereof?

  No, I do not know of any. I know many instances of claimed prophecies, but none of them can be confirmed. If you ask me of the closest example I think i would say something like eg. nostra damus, but the problem here is what is being said is to vague to not be a coincidence.
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  NeonMadman

  Neon: I assume we are discussing here a letter that is claimed by someone to be written before 9/11?

  No, I intended both the statement the way they were written, does that influence your answer?

  Well, of course. If I simply found a document that described the events of 9/11, with no prophetic claim being made, then of course I would regard it as having been written after the event. That is not the case with the Gospels.

  In 1964, I read a best selling book called A Gift of Prophecy, about Jeane Dixon. The book made the claim that Dixon had predicted, as far back as 1956, I believe it was, the assassination of JFK. Now, obviously, the book itself was written after the assassination, but it claimed that there were publications and documents that showed Dixon had made the prediction before the event. If one of those documents was produced (and, in reality, I'm not sure any ever were), it would be illegitimate to dismiss it as having been written after the fact. We would have to evaluate it claims on its own merits.

  I'm certainly not advancing Jeane Dixon as an example of genuine prophecy. The book I cited contained a list of her predictions for the future, which I once evaluated many years later. As I recall, she had about a 10-15% accuracy rate, which probably most anyone could have achieved based on current events plus a bit of common sense. The most significant events that she predicted (World War III in the 1990s, the rise of a great world leader bringing a golden age in the 21st century) were completely off the mark.

  Just the same, if you do believe that genuine prophecy is possible, I am wondering if there is any instance in history that you think might represent an example thereof?

  No, I do not know of any. I know many instances of claimed prophecies, but none of them can be confirmed. If you ask me of the closest example I think i would say something like eg. nostra damus, but the problem here is what is being said is to vague to not be a coincidence.

  Then I am curious on what basis you believe that prophecy is possible. Are you saying that prophecy might really happen, and some day we might also discover real fairies and unicorns? I agree about Nostradamus, by the way. His "prophecies" are written in such vague language that they could apply to almost anything, or nothing. It's impossible to know because of their non-specificity. Unlike Jesus, who was quite specific about what would happen to Jerusalem.
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  Witness My Fury

  Here's another book you wont like Neon:

  islamic-replies.ucoz.com/Bible_Books/22916607-Jesus-interrupted-Bart-D-ehrman.pdf