by Captain Blithering 37 Replies latest jw friends
Seinfeld: Who ARE these people??!?!?!
Seriously, who are these people who say that NON-JWs will survive armageddon? That is NOT a borg teaching never has been. Most uber dubs I know sit around and mentally circle jerk themselves getting off on who IN the cancer won't survive.
You sound you have a reasonable wife. I think your idea of leaving things out for her to find herself is a good idea. Sometimes you need to give them an "out" and a way to save face until they are in a place where they are wiling to consider the possibility that your points have some merit. My wife came around quite quickly because I'd ask her questions about things that weren't making sense to me anymore. I'd let her know when she expained her understanding of things to me, that I could see her point and then I'd show her the alternate explanation I wondered about and then I'd leave it at that. Pretty soon she started hearing the holes in the logic being taught from the platform on her own after I had stopped going to meetings.
One thing you might remind your wife of (if you haven't already) is that JW's beleive the end is near and it is imperative that each Witness spend as much time as posslibe in spreading the "life saving" message from door to door. They believe that anyone not heading their message and not getting themselves out of Babylon the Great will share in her destruction which could happen any day now. They believe they could lose their own lives if they don't participate fully in spreading the message. To believe this and to go around publicly recommending ones way of life to others, is to also say that you yourself and those in your religion have it made and everyone else had better make some big changes....quickly.
Ask her if she thinks whether or not people who have no religion at all or don't belong to a church will be spared at Armageddon since technically they aren't part of Babylon the great.
Ask her if a person would be better off at Armageddon if they had never heard the "message" at all compared to someone who did hear the "message" at all and refused to accept the "truth".
Ask her if she had to guess, who besides Jehovah's Witnesses, have a good shot at surviving Armageddon.
Ask her if because of all the recent changes in the Societies understanding of certain doctrines, whether all the Witnesses from the past who died believing they were worshipping god in Truth, were in fact displeasing to Jehovah since they went around teaching things that are now considered falsehoods.
Whenever they make a claim that you know is untrue, challenge them to find you an article that proves their claim. That way, they have to do some research themselves.
Every paragraph that suggests non JWs may survive, goes on to mean the opposite when read carefully in context. Try to get her to work that out herself.
Hey man, why does it have to boil down to who is the "better" at arguing? Verbal skills aside, it is a more effective strategy to shift from having "being right" discussions to those that focus on "wondering" and "please help me understand" and its close relative "please help me understand the rationale for that teaching..." There is so much wasted pride and personal investment in proving one or other teaching right (or wrong), whereas gently seeking information from the Witnesses and wondering out loud where the necessary "backing scriptures" are can be heard because it doesn't come across as "exposing" or "critical".
For example, "Honey I appreciate how important scriptural reasoning is to the GB so was wondering what their views were on..." It places the burden of evidence on the Witnesses. Even when they give an arrogant answer such as, "We must wait on Jehovah", you respond by sayng, "That seems wise because we don't want to go beyond Scripture, but I'm wondering how we'd explain that to someone from a church of Christendom if they said that's similar to what their minister says to them about understanding Bible truths?"
If you treat discussions about "the truth" as arguments in which only one side can be right (meaning the other side must be wrong), there will be tears before bedtime. But if you frame the discussion as trying to better understand, hankies are not necessary and your spouse will see you're struggling to understand that which simply does not square with the claim the organization is teaching "Bible truths".
That's some good reasoning exwhyzee, I'll store them up for future use.
And Black Sheep, you're quite right, I'm doing all the work here, i MUST remember that next time, that if a claim is made that is clearly bunkum I shall definitely make a challenge for evidence. Thanks!
And Steve2, I used the word arguing wrongly I think, it was more of a deep discussion, BUT i get your point, that rather than coming at it from a "I hold THIS viewpoint but you hold THAT viewpoint" , I should adopt the 'wondering' 'help me understand' position a lot more than I do.
Thanks for the advice guys, it's really appreciated..
(I've just remembered that a bit of the convo was about the demanding of unquestioning obedience to the GB under threat of expulsion, and in the next couple of weeks we've got the wt about following guidance even though it may seem illogical. Hope that sparks a thought.)
In the end it could be quite powerful if a simple question helped her to reason and see for herself.
Whatever works though.
Sounds like good progress.
I missed this thread, well I think you did well. You have got reasoning skills indeed you have. Now you have a toolbox of things you can say next time. What you are doing is a fine example well done, you truly love your wife, ahhh so nice to see, and she loves you too. Heres hoping you will be out together.
Take care Kate xx
Cheers Kate , it's going better than I expected so far, but like snare says, there's a tipping point where I'm gonna have to take a stand , a proper stand , we'll see then where that leaves me. . . .
Good luck my Captain ! (said in Peter Sellers "Bluebottle" voice from the Goon Show)
When I finally made my stand I had hardly had any discussion with my born-in wife about my new found TTATT.
I knew not if she would go Ape, and even if our marriage would survive it.
I was lucky, Mrs Phizzy went along with my decision, though even now after a good few years, she still feels the loss of friends, and seeing their kids grow up etc. The rest of the baggage which comes with the cult she is more than happy to be rid of.
Great advice from Steve and others above, keep on dropping the questions, and let her find the answers, and as I said above, Good Luck !
CB, I had my tipping point too, it went badly, so I hope you can be more in control than I was, but it's all good now, we are all fine. Kate xx
