How would you answer these questions that came to me in an email through my website? ...

by AndersonsInfo 44 Replies latest jw friends

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    16. I did ask the question - Who were the true Christians after the death of the last Apostle? but I did not get any convincing answer. I decided to take it that Jehovah knows best and he will always find a way to get his purpose accomplished

    An old illustration goes: Heavy rain brought flooding to a valley. As the water rose, rescuers went to the church where the minister was standing at the top step above the rising water. The men in the boat told the minister that he needs to come with them, but the minister responds, "No, for I have faith that God shall rescue me!" Several hours later the water has risen to the roof and the current is too strong for boats, so a helicopter is rescuing the last people. Again they come to the minister and inform him that he needs to leave with them right now, but he responds, "No, for God is hearing my prayers and I have faith that the water will soon drain away." Frustrated beyond words, the rescuers continue their mission elsewhere. A short time later, the church building collapses and the minister drowns as the building is washed away. Now the minister appears at the gates of heaven stating his case, "Lord, I served you my whole life, I prayed to you and had complete faith in your power to deliver me and save my church, yet you let me drown! How could you abandon me in my time of need?" God responded, "I sent you a boat and a helicopter. Why would you turn your back on my answer to your prayer?"

    Similarly, if we accept that Jehovah knows best, we need to realize that no answer is indeed THE answer. If you cannot get a convincing answer to a rather small question, perhaps God is encouraging you to research further into the big questions before you throw your lot in with Watchtower.

  • Bugbear
    Bugbear

    I would like to add some comments to my previous. I think i would be apropriate to also give him your own website:

    http://watchtowerdocuments.com/index.html

    It will giv him most of the answers he would like from you. (If he dare to read)

    Bugbear

  • nugget
    nugget

    4. I understand your emotional feeling as a woman regarding the molestation of teenage girls and women by members of the organization and the manner the in which the policies are applied in managing the issues, but shouldn't you have waited for Jehovah's own time? Deuteronomy 32:35

    The expression wait on Jehovah is often used to justify inaction suggesting that Jehovah will take action on behalf of victims either by a change of policy or by some other act of judgement. However if you look at the Bible record Jehovah has never shown acceptance or approval for this attittude. When religious leaders became corrupt and led the people in false worship then the whole nation was punnished even though the majority had merely followed the lead of those in authority or been passive and uncritical. The only ones who received Gods approval were those who had the courage to speak out against the status quo and make a stand for what is right. Each one has to render an account for himself therefore Christianity is not a passive faith but an active one in which each one must be responsible and prepared to stand for what is right. Even from a human standpoint allowing vulnerable children to be raped and molested when you have the ability to prevent it is despicable. Outside of a religious setting you wouldn't even think twice you would do all you could to prevent or report it, why should the care given to children in a religion be less then that given to children elsewhere?

    5. I understand the hypocrisy you are trying to highlight but is leaving the organization a better choice? Remember John 6: 66-70; 1Samuel 16: 7-9

    This question is based on the assumption that the organisation fairly represents God and is the best place to be, that all alternatives are worse. However there is no indication in the Bible that God is happy with an organisation that claims to serve him but fails to do so. Jesus didn't stick with the Jewish faith and try to reform from within his followers left the corrupt faith and set up a new one. The assumption is also made that a person who sees a problem with the society can highlight this and be listened to and be allowed to remain in the society. Firstly most ordinary members and certainly women have no authority and no voice. Even when the issue is serious the pressure is to maintain the status quo and not to bring the society into disrepute is supreme. People who wish to make changes are not welcome and not allowed to stay a part of the organisation. The most effective way to keep something quiet is to exclude the person who tries to bring it to the attention of others. This means existing members are told not to talk to the person or to pay attention to anything they write in this way their concerns are silenced. Being outside is often forced on a person not a choice a person makes.

    6. What is then the hope for salvation or have you believed there is no salvation for mankind?

    Biblical salvation is not the gift of men but rather God. The Bible does not direct followers to an organisation but rather towards Christ and his sacrifice. So God will deem who is worthy to receive his salvation in whatever form it takes. For some Biblical salvation is a myth no more real than any other story. These ones seek to be involved and make a difference salvation is not something given but rather something to be achieved.

    9. As a man, I hate rape and child molestation, but shouldn't there be reasonable evidence to convict somebody of a crime?

    As a human being I hate rape and molestation of children but do not believe that uneducated people whatever their religious conviction are best equipped to determine what has happened. Since the primary focus of elders is to determine the level of repentance and to protect the reputation of the congregation they are too invested in the outcome to be able to objectively investigate such an accusation. Reasonable evidence can be collected by police, forensics, by psychologists trained to talk to victims of child abuse and by hospital staff who can determine physical damage. They can not only examine evidence but also prosecute and thus protect other children from suffering similar abuse.

    We must also consider the victim in this who can be damaged mentally and physically by going through a judicial committee. Sometimes they can be made to feel in some way responsible and because the process is there to examine repentance a victim is so concerned with showing how sorry they are to avoid being disfellowshipped that they can be left feeling tremendous guilt for their own abuse. Professional help received when reporting to the proper authorities can give the victim support so that they know that they are not to blame. In the real world saying sorry is not enough in fact it is irrelevent, in the kingdom hall it can be enough to get you a private reproof meaning a victim may be attending meetings with their abuser and not being able to tell anyone what a danger they are or warn other parents and children without being accused of reviling.

    10. I understand your frustration with the two witnesses account policy but if someone denies the allegation, the organization have no means of establishing the truth without adequate evidence. In this case, shouldn't you have thought that vengeance belongs to God? Remember Romans 12: 17-19; Luke 12: 52 -59 11.

    That is what the police and other experts are for.

    On the issue of higher education, I do not think the organization banned members from seeking higher education. There a lot of witnesses in Nigeria that are in the higher school of learning. Except you can provide me with evidence to the contrary. What I understood was members should be careful not to be overtly pursuing higher education when they have a qualification that can provide them a basic means of sustenance e.g. if you are a degree holder, at least it could provide you a decent living so why go further when the time spent for further education can be used for God service. As an individual, I do not think anyone can talk me out of my personal dreams. The issue in religion I see amongst people generally is the application of the doctrines. Some are bigots while others are liberal.

    If an elder supports a child in higher education their qualifications for oversight are reviewed. This shows how strongly the organisation feel about higher education. Does this person not attend assemblies or read the magazines or listen?

    12. On the issue of flip-flops and the failure of witness message of doom, it maybe due to lack of understanding of the scripture at that time. Every day, new understanding is perceived. Remember 2Peter 3:16 13. The issues you highlighted on more dangers are baseless as I do not see anything wrong in being neutral in times of war or refusal to salute the flag. There are scriptural basis for it e.g. Isaiah 2: 2-4; Deuteronomy 4:16

    It is nice that you can be so casual about the changes in doctrine and the failure in prophecy. Remember that anyone who does not believe the doctrine as writen at any time and questions it can be disfellowshipped, even if the society later changes their doctrine. People make important life decisions based on what they are told is the "truth" at any time, the consequences of such decisions can be huge. Any organisation that insists on this level of obedience also has a degree of responsibility to it's members to protect them. Since the society never apologies, admits failure or compensates members who have been harmed through following bad advice or for making poor decisions based on the societies interpretation of prophecy then they are causing unnecessary harm to their members. Flip flops are disgraceful when the society has such Draconian rules.

    13. Talking about losing friends and family members as a result of associating with witnesses, I think there is also a scriptural basis for it. Matthew 10: 32-38; Luke 12: 52-53; 14: 25-27

    There is no real scriptual basis for shunning. Jesus christ never shunned anyone including Judas. When Jesus said at the last supper that someone was going to betray him the disciples didn't confront Judas because Jesus had been shunning him, rather they were concerned that it wasn't themselves. They had no reason to see Judas as different. The parable of the prodigal son also indicates that forgiveness is required of Christians. The organisation tells members of the public that they should not have to choose between family and their religion and yet this is something baptised members are expected to do. The reason the organisation says something different to the public and gives a different message to it's members is because they know that such a stricture would be unpalatable to most people. It is unnatural to shun, it is bullying and unchristian it diminishes those that practice it.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Hey Barbara!..

    .

    His questions can be boiled down to:

    1)Why don`t you wait on Jehovah?!..

    2)The WBT$ is right,why would you question them?!

    3)The WBT$ makes mistakes but,"Where else would you go?!..

    .....................He`s not looking for answers..

    .

    .I`m counting Time with Barbara Anderson!!..

    .................. I`m sooooo Sneaky!!..

    http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2009-06-08-sneaky.jpg

    ..................................................................... photo mutley-ani1.gif ...OUTLAW

  • skeeter1
    skeeter1

    Classic Outlaw!

  • Gentledawn
    Gentledawn

    Think Outlaw and few others nailed it: the guy wants you to do all the heavy lifting/research.

    Is anyone else sorta creeped out about the way gender roles got framed in at least two of his questions?

    4. "... as a woman..."

    9. "As a man, ..."

    Really? Why was it necessary to specify gender in either case?

  • FatFreek 2005
    FatFreek 2005

    "12. On the issue of flip-flops and the failure of witness message of doom, it maybe due to lack of understanding of the scripture at that time. Every day, new understanding is perceived. Remember 2 Peter 3:16 " I'm surprised that you acknowledge flip-flop teachings (their biggest Achilles heel in my opinion) but did you know that the Watchtower goes so far as to deny them? "At times explanations given by Jehovah’s visible organization have shown adjustments, seemingly to previous points of view. But this has not actually been the case." The Watchtower, 1981, 12/1 p. 27 The Great Watchtower Contradiction exposes flip-flop reversals of a single Watchtower teaching to the count of not once or twice -- but seven times. It's a free online essay that'll take some 11 minutes of your reading time. Make sure you certify each Watchtower publication quotation with your own Watchtower library CD. They are either ignorant of Contradiction or blatantly and dishonestly put it aside. In either case, the spirit direction their governing body is getting is clearly not the same as the one to which it lays claim. Len Miller for the convenience of smart phone users a QR code follows

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Yeah I shuddered at the as a woman comment, too. As a man isn't he also concerned?

  • AndDontCallMeShirley
    AndDontCallMeShirley

    from another JWN topic but it seems apropos here:

    "Proving a negative is like trying to pick up an entire mountain range and tossing it above your head, like a juggling act. The amount of information and legwork to research it is astounding.

    On the other hand, it is NOT up to the person who is supposed to be persuaded of an idea to prove the other party's argument for them. The weight of the evidence is to be brought by the person who brings the idea/argument, ....."

    This guy needs to prove WT is right, Barbara needs to prove nothing....

  • Jack Miller
    Jack Miller

    With regards to making rules, but especially the rule that violates Jesus commandment of loving your neighbor (his #15), I would like to add this post:

    I am still a JW. I still believe in Jehovah. When many learn TTATT (The Truth About The Truth) they loose faith in everything including Jehovah. I had some terrible things happen to me from within the organization. I also learned about the organization joining the UN. I saw how the organization protected and hid pedophiles. I became friends with those that the organization persecuted just because these ones were helping the victims of pedophiles. All of these things made be go back to the scriptures. After studying again Jesus life, I changed my way of thinking about our organization. I used to brag that our organization patterned itself after the early 1st century congregation. Now I am ashamed that it does, because if you pattern yourself after something flawed, then you will be flawed. When Jesus was walking the earth his apostles were always arguing about being important. He even washed their feet to try and teach them not to lord it over each other. He gave them those two rules and told them that was all that they needed. Soon after his death they appointed men (by throwing dice) to make up rules. This was the first Governing Body. They have continued to our day with making up rules to lord it over the others just like the Scribes and Pharisees. To enforce their rules they use shunning. The April and July Watchtowers of last year had some pretty upsetting rules in them. I don't know how much of all this he already know. Please ask him to write back and let me know. Also, if he will take his "Reasoning from the Scriptures" book and look at some references that the Society uses in it under the subject of cross. It should blow his mind after he looks up those references and see how the Society misquoted them. Once they even put a period inside of quotation marks, which signifies to me that is the end of sentence. However, in that Imperial Bible Dictionary there was not a period there. Instead there was a comma, and what went after the comma was the rest of the sentence that actually supports the belief that Jesus died on a cross. It makes no difference to me what he died on, but to be lied to like this makes me want to look at more of their references. In that same chapter on cross, the Society prominently quotes a man that does have the view that Jesus died on a stake and not a cross. However, if you look up that man (Parsons), you will find that he believes Jesus is merely a man, not the son of God. In fact, he thinks that all Christianity is of pagan origin. Why in the world would the Society use this man as an authority?

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