Christians please answer something for me

by confusedandalone 58 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cofty
    cofty

    your standard seems to be pain=wrong

    No that is obviously facile. Why would I say something so silly?

    hmm sounds like something the watchtower would say

    There is no greater insult than accusing an ex-JW, who has lost a great deal by leaving the cult, of behaving like a JW. Please don't do it again.

    Morals are nothing more than our musings about how we promote the flourishing of conscious creatures.

    There is no absolute standard of morality "out there" somewhere like an essential Platonic triangle.

    We do not need absolute morality in order to judge moral actions objectively.

  • Saved_JW
    Saved_JW

    We do not need absolute morality in order to judge moral actions objectively.

    Your comment is self-defeating Cofty. Absolute morality IS Objective morality! You begin by declaring we dont need absolute morality. Then you conclude by declaring we can JUDGE moral actions Objectively?? Either you have an objective starting point to judge actions, or you have a subjective starting point to judge them.

    Whats more interesting is the convient definition you [Or Sam Harris] have given for what morality is:

    Morals are nothing more than our musings about how we promote the flourishing of conscious creatures.

    Thus sayeth Sam Harris, let it be written, let it be done...
    Sorry I dont agree with the creeds of Sam harris as my moral starting point. Just because he says it [or you say it] does not make it absolute.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Absolute morality IS Objective morality!

    So-called absolute morality is nothing more than the capricious ravings of divine fiat.

    Evil is love if god says so.

    Read The Moral Landscape and then we can discuss it.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    You're using words misleadingly, cofty. How can any morality be objective? You act as if, once one's eyes are unclouded by religion, the One True Morality becomes apparent to them, and can be scientifically or mathematically proven.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Apog - Objective and absolute are not the same thing.

    How would you define absolute good health?

    Do you think we can make objective statements about good health and bad health?

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Let me back up and see if I understand what you're saying. "Absolute" would mean "this is the one true morality that everyone has to follow", and "objective" would "according to some predecided criteria". Is that right? Because the dictionary defines objective as "not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts", and "not dependent on the mind for existence". For an atheist, doesn't that mean that it's impossible to have objective morality in the real world?

  • cofty
    cofty

    "Absolute" would mean "this is the one true morality that everyone has to follow",

    I can go with that. Theists think morality exists out there somewhere like the standard metre against which everything can be measured.

    This is a childish wish. It doesn't exist.

    the dictionary defines objective as "not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts"

    Yes.

    Physical health is a useful analogy. There is no such thing as a perfect standard of health. However that does not mean that questions about good and bad health are simply matters of opinion or preference.

    Vomiting until you die of dehydration is bad - objectively bad. If somebody says they consider vomiting until they die an example of good health they are misinformed about real objective facts about the possibilities of better health.

    There are correct ways and incorrect ways to be moral. These are objective facts that don't depend on opnion or majority votes. However there is no absolute standard of morality.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    I suppose I agree with everything you wrote, but being objective is tricky because first everyone needs to know the facts, and then they all need to agree on how to interpret the facts. I feel like, by the end of the process, it's mostly subjective. Your health example is simpler than many real-world moral conundrums.

    For instance, should inveterate criminals be executed? Well, how do you arrive at an objective morality for this, without first considering whether it's possible for even a hardened criminal to be reformed, and whether it is more humane for society to pay for him to live in prison or whether that does more harm collectively than executing him would. Perhaps he should spend years working off his debt to society, but now you've made him a slave, and that's got its own moral cost.

    Then one has to consider what his crime is; would murder of an innocent man be worthy of execution? Then what about murder of an opposing gang member who was shooting at him? What about dealing drugs to large numbers of people and ruining their lives? It's hard to see how facts can be used to arrive at a logical conclusion here without everyone also agreeing that factor X has this much importance and action Y does this much harm, etc. etc.

    So I'm naturally wary of using the word "objective" at all. Whether a religious person follows the standards of his god, or whether humans try to agree on a secular morality, I think it's mostly subjective no matter what.

  • daigle1212
    daigle1212

    It is a sad thing to say however people don't seem to grow without trauma. When we get comfortable we think we have all the answers so why change. Then something bad happens and we question what we know and change our way of thinking. So in my opinion, that is when the bad turns good. If nothing bad happened to us as JW's, would we have left?

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