Dead pregnant woman forced to stay on life support, due to TX State law

by adamah 285 Replies latest social current

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Thinking this is a pro-life issue is quite a confused perspective,,,

    Is it moral to keep a 99 year old woman alive against nature, by artificial means because YOU believe in pro-life, despite her asking to be left alone to die?

    imagine she is in great pain and suffering with no quality of life. Maintaining life against her will is torture for her, not moral.

    This is why it is ethically dubious to maintain this fetus, the probability of a terrible quality of life is high, by prolonging the life unnaturally, you are not on a moral ground, it is a very uninfomred, unknown ground. I have done PICU and SCUBU rotations and the difference of hours in development makes a difference. At 21 weeks the doctor does not have to maintain life, at 22 weeks they are. This fetus was put on life support via its dead mother at 14 weeks.

    This is very dicey ground. Again, it is being done without the desd patients consent or her living next of kin.

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24

    I believe that under Texas law you will find that there are a lot of links that make the abortion law go hand in hand with the legal rights of the unborn in Texas. That's why the 20 week application would have been put in there. It is pretty clear that Texas law believes that after 20 weeks, a fetus should not be endangered or terminated unless a mothers health is at risk - in a hospital and under hospital policy. In this case the fetus is now 21 weeks and progressing - that means that it is possible that the hospital could declare the unborn a child with legal rights in as far as being given medical care. It isn't out of the realm of possibility that the child could be declared a ward of the state and care applied through the courts.

    In a Jan 3rd article, the father wasn't intent on suing - that came afterward. On an interesting note that people keep wanting this to remain legal (and I think there are legal possibilities where the state could win this one) without the complexities of ethics etc. - nobody can do that. Not even the husband, who by his own words keeps talking to his wife as if she is alive. This would mean that he has seen her as a patient - not a cadaver. On the one hand she's declared dead - but on the other hand she's spoken to as if she's alive. sw

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    AP

    DALLAS, TX -- Marlise Munoz lies in a North Texas hospital, 19 weeks pregnant but with no chance of seeing her child born.

    Her husband, Erick Munoz, says a doctor told him she's brain dead, but John Peter Smith Hospital is refusing to allow him to take her off of life support. The hospital says Texas law prohibits it from following a family directive when a pregnancy is involved, although three experts say the hospital is misreading the law in question.

    The case is raising questions about end-of-life care and stands in stark contrast to that of a 13-year-old girl in California whose family is trying to keep her on life support after she was declared brain dead. In that case, the hospital wants to remove the ventilator keeping her heart pumping, saying the girl is legally dead.

    In the Texas case, Munoz said he and his wife both worked as paramedics and have seen life and death up close.

    "It's our decision that we didn't want to live in that condition," he said in a phone interview Friday from his wife's hospital room.

    Munoz found his wife unconscious in the early morning hours of Nov. 26. The family says it doesn't know the exact cause, though a pulmonary embolism is a possibility. Marlise Munoz was 14 weeks pregnant at the time.

    Erick Munoz described his personal conflict as the father of a 14-month-old boy who wanted another child, but as a medical professional who didn't know if the fetus could survive or how much it had suffered.

    Marlise Munoz's case appears to be rare. A 2010 article in the journal BMC Medicine found 30 cases of brain-dead pregnant women over about 30 years. Of 19 reported results, the journal found 12 in which a viable child was born and had post-birth data for two years on only six of them - all of whom developed normally, according to the journal.

    John Peter Smith Hospital in Fort Worth is pointing to a provision of the Texas Advance Directives Act that reads: "A person may not withdraw or withhold life-sustaining treatment under this subchapter from a pregnant patient."

    Hospital spokeswoman J.R. Labbe said she isn't permitted to confirm that Marlise Munoz had been declared brain-dead, only that she was pregnant and hospitalized in serious condition.

    "We are following the law of the state of Texas," Labbe said. "This is not a difficult decision for us. We are following the law."

    But three experts interviewed by The Associated Press, including two who helped draft the law, said a brain-dead patient's case wouldn't be covered by the law.

    "This patient is neither terminally nor irreversibly ill," said Dr. Robert Fine, clinical director of the office of clinical ethics and palliative care for Baylor Health Care System. "Under Texas law, this patient is legally dead."

    Tom Mayo, a Southern Methodist University law professor, said the hospital would lose absolute immunity from a civil or criminal case if it granted the request, but noted that "most medical decisions" are made without immunity.

    While not ruling out legal action, Munoz said Friday that he was more concerned about letting others know about his family's ordeal and possibly pushing for a change to state law to clarify it.

    "If anything good is to come of this, we want to inform people," Munoz said.

    In the meantime, Munoz said he continues to deal with what he called a "roller coaster of emotions." He balances work and taking care of his son with visits to his wife's hospital bed, where he talks to her about the life they once shared.

    "I tell her, 'Hey, our boy is doing OK,'" Munoz said. "'He's healthy and he's growing.'

    "It's joyful stuff that I'm letting her know of, but at the same time, I wish she was there to witness it herself."

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Abortion?

    If a pregnant woman dies, it is not an abortion. What a bizzare thing to say. Why are you guessing what the legal basis is, the hospital has already quoted the legal stance they have used and it is flawed.

  • valkyrie
    valkyrie

    Not even the husband, who by his own words keeps talking to his wife as if she is alive. This would mean that he has seen her as a patient - not a cadaver. On the one hand she's declared dead - but on the other hand she's spoken to as if she's alive.

    Not necessarily the case: I have seen people sit by a cemetery headstone, and talk "to" a deceased relative in a conversational tone, being under no illusion that the deceased is alive and present. The body (in this instance) is just a physical point of reference for the 'idea' or memory of the widower's dead wife.

  • adamah
    adamah

    Sammielee said-

    I believe that under Texas law you will find that there are a lot of links that make the abortion law go hand in hand with the legal rights of the unborn in Texas. That's why the 20 week application would have been put in there. It is pretty clear that Texas law believes that after 20 weeks, a fetus should not be endangered or terminated unless a mothers health is at risk - in a hospital and under hospital policy. In this case the fetus is now 21 weeks and progressing - that means that it is possible that the hospital could declare the unborn a child with legal rights in as far as being given medical care. It isn't out of the realm of possibility that the child could be declared a ward of the state and care applied through the courts.

    That very well might explain all of this, which gets back to suspecting JPS was intentionally dragging their feet for 6 wks, so they could make it to the 20 wk point; hence the "unless a mothers health is at risk" provision wouldn't apply, since the mother is already DEAD.

    I guess we'll see what happens....

    Adam

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Valkyrie, I saw that one too.

    Not even the husband, who by his own words keeps talking to his wife as if she is alive. This would mean that he has seen her as a patient - not a cadaver. On the one hand she's declared dead - but on the other hand she's spoken to as if she's alive.

    probably the dumbest thing I have read on the internet..... No really.

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    Abortion?

    If a pregnant woman dies, it is not an abortion. What a bizzare thing to say.

    It is bizarre, which is why I think the law doesn't even apply.

    Why are you guessing what the legal basis is, the hospital has already quoted the legal stance

    While the law likely does't apply, that doesn't mean that the DA will not try to use it to muddy the legal waters.

    Now that the case is OUT of the hands of the right-to-life hospital counsel's hands and IN the hands of the County DA's office, it will be interesting to see how things develop.

    I wonder if the El Paso DA is an elected or appointed official?

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    Valkyrie, I saw that one too.

    Not even the husband, who by his own words keeps talking to his wife as if she is alive. This would mean that he has seen her as a patient - not a cadaver. On the one hand she's declared dead - but on the other hand she's spoken to as if she's alive.

    probably the dumbest thing I have read on the internet..... No really.

    Oh Sammie... I know you mean well....but more logic, less emotion....

    I've seen people pray to statues of Jesus, but they didn't think the statue was alive.

    Now, I'm leaving to get all tribal for the Seahawks!

  • Violia
    Violia

    These ( the Texas case and the California one) are troubling sad situations.

    I feel sure the hospital in Texas will prevail, or at least be found to be acting in the patients ( baby) best interest. Doing the best you can under the situation as you understand it is a defense. The hospital is doing the best it can to protect the alive baby and giving baby a chance to progress to birth. This may all be a non issue b/c so much could happen between now and when the baby could be safely delivered.

    The case in California reeks of malpractice and I am interested if the family sues. ( for possible malpractice that lead to her death after a routine tonsillectomy. )

    Ms. Munioz case is also troubling in that no one really knows why she was unconscious on the floor. I queses they will know on the autopsy ( when that happens) but seems a bit suspicious and I find the husband's attitude troubling.

    It is all very sad but let it proceed to the higher courts . One thing is for sure, Pro/choice and Pro/Life people are unlikely to ever agree. I am Pro Life but do recognize situations where abortion could be appropriate.( rape/incest/serious health issues of mother or baby).

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24

    probably the dumbest thing I have read on the internet..... No really.

    --------

    I guess a person might be considered dumb as rocks if they can't get that I was trying to open up the complexities of the case above the legalities. Really. sw

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