Dead pregnant woman forced to stay on life support, due to TX State law

by adamah 285 Replies latest social current

  • adamah
    adamah

    JT, thanks for jumping into discussion.

    This just in:

    The judge recused herself from the lawsuit, due to conflict of interests; so 2 more days wasted....

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/16/22330010-texas-judge-recuses-herself-from-lawsuit-over-brain-dead-pregnant-woman

    BTW, Marlise Munoz' mother has been trapped in limbo during all of this, and has been suffering for months over the agonized loss of not JUST her daughter, but the loss of a grandchild.

    Sammielee said- Why not wait the 3 weeks and have all the testing done? Wouldn't that be the middle ground of compromise?

    Sounds reasonable, except what right do you or I or anyone else have to find middle ground over? NO ONE BUT the deceased's husband should have the right to decide what happens to her body, since he's next-of-kin; instead, his wishes AND the deceased wishes are completely ignored, since TX law DEMANDS those wishes be ignored, unless his decision is to keep his deceased wife's body on life support. For THAT'S the ONLY decision that is allowed (i.e.Erick Munoz has NO say in the matter).

    Sammielee said- There are some things that don't really add up in as far as the father claims that both he and his wife being paramedics, both did not want DNR or life support for themselves as they had seen enough in their line of duty. Yet - as adamant as he sounds about taking his wife off that support for those very reasons - neither he nor his wife were such strong advocates nor all that sure about it in that neither of them bothered to put it in writing. Something both of them knew was in their best interests if they felt that strongly. Just how strong was his wife's desire and would it have been the same with pregnancy?

    AGAIN, it doesn't matter if Marlise Munoz had been a prescient fortune teller and knew she'd suffer an embolism and end up dead with a fetus inside of her. She could've hired an airplane that wrote her wishes in the sky via sky-writing, or written her desire to not to be kept on life support on a set of stone tablets that were personally notarized by God Himself: TX law doesn't care, since it FORCES the hospital to ignore the patient's wishes: that's the entire point of the story!

    Sammielee said- Further - they worked in Texas and as part of the health services, would no doubt been fully aware of Texas law in these sort of cases and didn't have an issue with it - as long as it didn't affect them.

    Or perhaps they should've moved out of TX, to flee from a law they thought would never apply to them?

    Sammielee said- Or was the wife accepting of the fact that should anything happen to her, that her unborn child would be the priority and all attempts made to secure the life of her child. Did she believe that no matter what her husband would have done all he could to make certian that their child was the priority in times of life and death? Who knows?

    Exactly... And WHO would be a person who stands the best chance of being able to answer that question: Erick Munoz, or the legislators in Austin who essentially decided for her when the law was passed?

    Sammielee said- The father has said they don't know how long the fetus was without nutrients or oxygen - everything is a guess. A could have. A maybe.

    Exactly.... And WHO should be able to decide, and then face the consequences of that choice? Erick Munoz, or the legislators in Austin, TX? As it stands now, the State makes the choice, but Erick has to live with the consequences. The family is in limbo, feeling completely out of control due to a legislature that is notorious for it's pro-life stance based on being in Xian heartland of conservative Texas.

    FHN said- I don't know if you've been pregnant, but expectant mothers call their babies, baby. They don't say things like, "Oh, I went to the doctor today and the fetus now is probably 2 pounds and has a very healthy heart beat." Or "Oh, the fetus kicked! Come here, see if you can feel the fetus." Or, "We decided to paint the fetus' nursery today." Expectant mothers who want their babies, call them baby.

    Yes, the warm loving glow of maternal hormones coursing through one's tender veins must be quite lovely, and I'm sure Marlise Munoz would be enjoying those feelings, too, if not for being DEAD. She cannot share in the wonder of the 'cycle of life', and your sharing the joys of motherhood in a thread about a deceased women is rather insensitive. I KNOW you're not that callous, FHN, but really, now. REALLY?

    Anyway, consider this scenario, which could just as easily play out under current TX law:

    Suppose the mother had not died, but instead suffered a debilitating stroke that left her in a coma during the pregnancy (which she would eventually awaken from, only to find herself bed-ridden and unable to return to her high-paying career, now requiring diapers and being spoon-fed). While in the coma, her husband realized the couple's life circumstances had significantly changed for the worse (esp since HE had been unable to work for years, due to health issues which left him permanently on disability). Throw in the same anoxic conditions suffered by the mother which compromised the prognosis of the fetus to be born without some permanent cognitive impairments and disabilities of its own, and the husband decided it would be better to abort the fetus, as it was all simply too much to bear for him to take care of his disabled wife.

    Shouldn't the husband have that right to decide?

    If he lived in TX, he wouldn't have the choice to make that decision, since the State already made it for him, due to religious types who place the sanctity of potential life above all other concerns (which makes THEM feel quite good about themselves, since they're carrying out God's will on Earth: Hallelujah!).

    Adam

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    FHN I wish this forum had a LIKE button next to posts. I would so LIKE your post. I have been pg 3 times, 2 live births one miscarriage at 3 months. It is a baby from the moment you suspect you may be pg. It has life . I was devastated at the loss of my baby. It looked human and was human.

    Are you sure you you didn't have any fetus showers or register your fetus with Macy', Target and Kohl's? We know the scientific name for various stage pregnancies, this is true, but I don't remember anyone telling me she was expecting an embryo, or how far along her fetus was. I'm doubting this Texas mother called her baby a fetus either, unless she was getting technical with someone. My doctors called my embryos and fetuses babies. "Heather, your baby is the size of a poppy seed, but by the end of the month it will equal two sesame seeds, end to end." "Can you feel your baby's kicks yet?" "Your baby is due March 4th, calculated by your last period." My childhood pediatric gastroenterologist:"I can feel your baby kick: precious cargo." <......I visited him when I was 25 and carrying my second child.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    She cannot share in the wonder of the cycle of life, and your sharing the joys of motherhood in a thread about a deceased women is rather insensitive.

    Oh jeez, did you ever take that out of context. We were discussing how this mother would feel is she was living. Adam, I'm beginning to see some genuine wisecracker in you. Something you might consider doing, trying, though I assume you are a man, is trying to be empathetic. Yes, this mother is deceased, so she cannot answer for herself. This doesn't mean that if she could speak for herself, she would pull the plug on the baby she wanted before she had her embolism. For most of us mothers posting here on this thread, those of us who wanted our babies, we can tell you that we'd do anything to save our babies' lives, including be on life support to continue the pregnancy. We wouldn't walk around calling them fetuses and saying, "Well, if I'm brain dead, but my fetus still has a heartbeat and continues to thrive, pull the plug anyway. Clearly your feelings are more important than the fetus."

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    Shouldn't the husband have that right to decide?

    No. Fathers do not have the right to decide whether a mother carries a baby to term or not.

  • adamah
    adamah

    FHN said-

    We were discussing how this mother would feel is she was living.

    Assume much? Is it possible you're projecting your experience onto others?

    Something you might consider doing, trying, though I assume you are a man, is trying to be empathetic.

    Sorry, but I cannot share the "warm glow of motherhood" experience with you (in a thread about a dead woman, no less)? I can only read of the experience of "oxytonin bonding", but not actually experience it....

    But you DO know who stands a better chance than you or I of actually KNOWING how she felt, so no projecting needed? Hmmm, I dunno: perhaps her HUSBAND? Or even possibly her MOTHER and FATHER (who are watching their 15 mo old old grand-child while his Daddy is preoccupied with dealing with this nonsense)?

    Where's your empathy for her Mom and Dad, torn apart inside whenever their grandson calls out for his mother who he's missing (who won't be coming home)? THEY are held in limbo while this drags on, since they're unable to start the healing process by being deprived of even a decent burial.

    So instead of assuming and relying on rampant projection, perhaps you can try to learn a tiny bit about what IS known about the Munoz family (be sure to watch the video, too), since that would be the truly empathetic thing to do:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2538590/Family-brain-dead-20-week-pregnant-mom-suing-hospital-refusing-turn-life-support-baby-born.html

    Adam

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24

    Adam - my point was in fact, that it is the father who went public insisting that both he and his wife were so against those they saw during the course of their work in health services in some similar circumstances, that they were adamant that it should never happen to them. Now - IF you are that adamant, if you feel that strongly about NEVER being on life support, then you make sure you follow through. Only those who are marginally discussing these things in the course of conversation or during an event, generally do nothing because as humans we ebb and flow and change our minds constantly. I've seen it happen. People when thinking nothing will happen to them sign a DNR - they end up in hospital quite sick and rewrite the order because they start to think that maybe being in hospital is the link to hope for a better day and they start to cling to the life they might have. Not everyone is the same, but this stuff happens.

    As for not moving from Texas - they likely knew exactly what those parameters were and were fine with them. Why move if you don't ardently disagree with them? So on the other hand - the husband insists the woman was against life support - those are his words. If his wife really felt that strongly she would have put it in writing - if she felt strongly about it maybe she would have moved out of the State - we only have his words and while you keep saying it wouldn't have mattered given Texas law over the unborn - my point is that if the husband keeps using this as his rationale for wanting the plug pulled - then supporting documents would have made a big difference in believing him.

    In essence, he has said nothing about the baby his wife was carrying. It might be a fetus to me - but considering that I don't know any couple that have ever said the wife is carrying a four month fetus. Generally they go buy baby furniture, baby clothes and plan for the baby - when they are asked at four months why she's gaining weight they don't jump up and scream 'she's got a fetus there'. Again, maybe a vote as to how many women sing to their fetus or do they sing to their baby? Do they eat for their fetus or want to eat right for their baby? This isn't just about separating legal from emotional - forget the religious.

    Maybe the issue has gotten down to parameters that all people will have to be happy with - if your spouse is pregnant - there will be no life saving measures made toward the child at a specific point. How long before a law suit is filed against another hospital for that one if in fact it happens to a family wherein they want all attempts made to save the child. Those parameters are not set as of yet across all States - maybe this will open the discussion up...on the other hand there have been comments made about how in the past this would not have happened because the fetus would have died naturally - we can't use that reasoning else all those preemies that cost millions of dollars to keep alive for months after birth, alive as a result of medical intervention, would also be included in those natural deaths. What are we progressing medicine for then? What is the tipping point, who makes it and where do we start and stop? The newly born or elderly first to go - and only offer the best to those who can produce in good health? samswife

  • adamah
    adamah

    sammielee said-

    my point was in fact, that it is the father who went public insisting that both he and his wife were so against those they saw during the course of their work in health services in some similar circumstances, that they were adamant that it should never happen to them. Now - IF you are that adamant, if you feel that strongly about NEVER being on life support, then you make sure you follow through. Only those who are marginally discussing these things in the course of conversation or during an event, generally do nothing because as humans we ebb and flow and change our minds constantly. I've seen it happen.I've seen it happen. People when thinking nothing will happen to them sign a DNR - they end up in hospital quite sick and rewrite the order because they start to think that maybe being in hospital is the link to hope for a better day and they start to cling to the life they might have. Not everyone is the same, but this stuff happens.

    FOR THE 3rd (and LAST) ATTEMPT AT EXPLAINING THIS:

    THAT FACT IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO THIS CASE, SINCE IT DOESN'T MATTER IF SHE HAD LEFT A DNR, SINCE TX STATE LAW (see the OP, where I quoted it) AUTOMATICALLY OVER-RIDES an otherwise perfectly-valid DNR that would be respected in other States.

    Do you understand that now?

    NOW, I hope you're not arguing that since some wishy-washy people cannot make up their mind and vacillate over making major healthcare decisions that the State is thus justified in taking that right from everyone and forcing an answer on everyone? That's an argument that one needs to be brain-dead to accept, since just because some people are seemingly unable to make ethical decisions (since they cannot reason their way out of a wet paper bag) doesn't mean the same group gets to decide for others.... That's just perverse logic.

    It's exactly these kinds of truly-difficult dilemmas (where so many uncertainties exist, and no choice is desirable) where the 'doctrine of informed consent' proves its value, holding that the ones who are most-effected by the decision are the ones who get to decide (based on pt's right to decide what happens to their body).

    In this case, the FAMILY has to bear the consequences of the decision, either way, so with no clear best alternative on offer they get to "pick their poison", since they have to pick up the pieces of their tattered lifes, either way.

    Instead, the State is ignored that concept, forcing a choice upon them (it's even WORSE than a Hobson's choice, where someone is offered a "take it or leave it" option. In the TX case, the family is FORCED to take it, and there's option to 'leave').

    In many other States, the State must show WHY there's a compelling interest for rest of the citizens to take away the decision from the the individual or family, but in anti-choice TX (driven by fundamentalist Xians), the situation is completely inverted.

    sammielee said- As for not moving from Texas - they likely knew exactly what those parameters were and were fine with them. Why move if you don't ardently disagree with them? So on the other hand - the husband insists the woman was against life support - those are his words. If his wife really felt that strongly she would have put it in writing - if she felt strongly about it maybe she would have moved out of the State - we only have his words and while you keep saying it wouldn't have mattered given Texas law over the unborn - my point is that if the husband keeps using this as his rationale for wanting the plug pulled - then supporting documents would have made a big difference in believing him.

    I don't know how else to get this through to you.

    Even the official form used by pts to write a DNR in TX clearly states IN BOLD PRINT that State law over-rides ALL DNRs if the person is pregnant, so your argument is complete bunk, since IT WOULDN'T MATTER IF she HAD left a DNR. TX hospitals will follow the State Law, or face criminal prosecution for violating the Advanced Directives Act which contains the onerous provision. ALL hospitals in TX are REQUIRED BY LAW to spit on any DNRs which don't abide with the provision in the law.

    sammielee said- In essence, he has said nothing about the baby his wife was carrying. It might be a fetus to me - but considering that I don't know any couple that have ever said the wife is carrying a four month fetus. Generally they go buy baby furniture, baby clothes and plan for the baby - when they are asked at four months why she's gaining weight they don't jump up and scream 'she's got a fetus there'. Again, maybe a vote as to how many women sing to their fetus or do they sing to their baby? Do they eat for their fetus or want to eat right for their baby? This isn't just about separating legal from emotional - forget the religious.

    Why do you feel entitled to judge Erick, as if he owes you or anyone else an explanation for his decision? He doesn't OWE anyone an explanation.

    Hell, ultimately I really don't give a flyin' flip what you or anyone elses wants to label it: call it a 'fetus', a 'baby', a 'child' or even call it whatever the prospective parents may have chosen as a name (Erick Jr, named after the father) etc, since it's TRULY none of YOUR business, but the FAMILIES. Just as the family has the right to pick a name for the baby of whatever they want, the decision in this matter should ALSO be the families, with no reasons demanded from busy-bodies.

    What's interesting about the dliemma is that this case goes beyond Roe v Wade, since it's not only about a woman's right to choose, but the COUPLE'S right to choose, (even the extended families right) vs the State's right.

    sammielee said- Maybe the issue has gotten down to parameters that all people will have to be happy with - if your spouse is pregnant - there will be no life saving measures made toward the child at a specific point. How long before a law suit is filed against another hospital for that one if in fact it happens to a family wherein they want all attempts made to save the child. Those parameters are not set as of yet across all States - maybe this will open the discussion up...on the other hand there have been comments made about how in the past this would not have happened because the fetus would have died naturally - we can't use that reasoning else all those preemies that cost millions of dollars to keep alive for months after birth, alive as a result of medical intervention, would also be included in those natural deaths. What are we progressing medicine for then? What is the tipping point, who makes it and where do we start and stop? The newly born or elderly first to go - and only offer the best to those who can produce in good health?

    We're discussing it now, and an informed electorate is the heart of a democracy since the complex issues require discussion of the alternatives.

    But as ALL cases are different, and no outcome is guaranteed, any public policy which tries to force a single answer upon all is destined to create unintended consequences IF it doesn't inherently allow for the flexibility of those most-directly effected by the decision to be able to decide. The family has absolutely NO input (and hence why the father hired an atty and filed to get his wife disconnected by court order), and their rights are being trampled over die to a State law.

    Adam

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24

    Too bad YOU don't get what I am trying to say. I don't take it from a religious, moral or any point of view except to understand that we are human and that all is never as it seems given human complexities. I find your attempt at discourse condescending - try harder to dig for those complexities and understand them when you start a conversation.

    Eventually all will be what it is for this family. I wish them all the best. sw

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    Nicely done FHN. You derailed the argument into an unrelated appeal to emotion, the very thing of which you accused me.

    Just because Adam, as a man, didn't pop out babies doesn’t mean he lacks the sympathy to comment on the matter, whether or not I ever had children is irrelevant, and using more accurate terms (like fetus) is never wrong. (For the record, I have two daughters; one is a tech corporation financial analyst/rising data scientist, and the other is a San Diego prosecutor).

    While Agrophonos and I disagree about when life begins, I very much appreciate that he (I assume he) made well-reasoned, logical arguments, which adds to this very important discussion that we, as a society, need to have.

    However, indulging you, of course pregnant women refer their fetuses as babies; they carry the child within them and have a personal relationship with it. Physicians defer to their emotional ties and call them babies too. Then, these same physicians refer to the “fetus” in the medical record because that is the correct term. The term wasn’t invented to denigrate but is used to distinguish between “babies” that are inside the womb as opposed to outside! Yes, FHN, your doctors were humoring you, which is part of good patient care. Nevertheless, why are you afraid to use the correct term? Could it be that your arguments lack substance so must appeal to the emotion-laden term “baby”?

    So, back to some of the real issues, using correct terms:

    State’s rights v. personal/family rights

    Who has the right to decide what happens to a dead woman’s body, the state or the next of kin?

    If the dead woman is pregnant, should the state be able to force the father to be a single parent?

    Do the dead woman’s wishes matter legally, and if so, how much?

    If they don’t, should they?

    If the medical status of the fetus is unknown, should the state be able to force the father to shoulder the burden of carrying emotionally, financially, and physically for a possibly severely disabled child?

    Do the rights of already born, living siblings and their present and future welfare factor into the equation?

    Medical Science & Ethics

    When does life being?

    Is there a difference between allowing a parent to abort a possibly defective fetus based on a genetic testing and allowing a father to remove his wife’s body from life support, thereby allowing a possibly defective fetus to die?

    Do the rights of the autonomous trump the rights of unborn, or do the rights of the unborn trump the rights of the autonomous?

    Aaaand there are more.

    With all these weighty issues, you want to derail the discussion into whether we should use babies v. fetus?

    Sorry, but I cannot share the "warm glow of motherhood" experience with you (in a thread about a dead woman, no less)?

    Adam, your gallows humor caused me to almost spit out my coffee laughing . . . We should have drinks…

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    except to understand that we are human and that all is never as it seems given human complexities.

    I think Adam addressed that here Sammie:

    But as ALL cases are different, and no outcome is guaranteed, any public policy which tries to force a single answer upon all is destined to create unintended consequences IF it doesn't inherently allow for the flexibility of those most-directly effected by the decision to be able to decide. The family has absolutely NO input (and hence why the father hired an atty and filed to get his wife disconnected by court order), and their rights are being trampled over die to a State law.

    In summation: it's complex so the family should decide, not the state.

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