Concerning Luke 24:39

by FrankRaven 26 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AGuest

  "The Bible says that Christ came back in the same flesh He died in or the gospel would be void."

  Actually, the Bible says what it says, at:

  1Pe 3:18 - "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit."

  And 1Cor 15:16, 17 - " For is the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised; and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain..."

  And 1 Cor. 15:35 - "But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

  And 1 Cor. 15:40 - "[There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another. " And finally, 1 Cor. 15:44 - "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. Now, that is what the BIBLE says. However, I did not go by that, but what I 'heard' spoken by my Lord himself, when my heart wanted to know why the disciples didn't recognize him at first. His response? "My Father does not look at the outward appearance, but what is INSIDE. So, it was not by means of the flesh which I occupied, but by my VOICE, that my sheep knew me." I am sorry if this is against what you understand, Frank, truly. I would like to agree with you... but I cannot... for it is not what I heard from my Lord. And it is HIS voice... that I listen to. I bid you the greatest of peace. YOUR servant and a slave of Christ, SJ
• 

  AGuest

  P.S., dear Frank:

  My Lord DID, in fact, come in the flesh. Absolutely! But it was NOT 'sinless' flesh, as would be thought of a god, but sinFUL flesh, so that it was 'tested in ALL respects', as is ours. The flesh he originally came in then, was like ours. He most certainly did come in the flesh, but is now a 'life-giving spirit'.

  Peace to you.
• 

  FrankRaven

  AGuest...I'm so glad you know so much more then Luke who wrote Luke 24:39.Luke says Christ came back the same way Christ left,yet you're telling me that the Bible lied.

  Good going..........You say you're not a witness,yet you denie everything any basic christian believes.You see the only people who say they are christians,yet I know aren't are mormons.I guess you'd have to be a witnesses.You believe in their Arian teachings.

  Plus you're trying very hard to change the subject....that's a Witnesses trick.If the Witness can't defend their heretical theology,they change the subject and argue that others are trying to change the subject.see the subject heading?It says it's about Luke 24:39...meaning the subject is resurrection,not the perfect or imperfect body......

  One more thing.....before I became a Born-again-Christian I was in the Occult,then followed the Watchtower..Both Watchtower and the Occult have great references for each other.

  So get real.......Jesus Christ is the Everlasting Jehovah God.......
• 

  AGuest

  Dearest Frank, may you have peace! Please.

  You state:

  AGuest...I'm so glad you know so much more then Luke who wrote Luke 24:39.

  Oh, Frank, dear, we need to clear this up right away: I... know NOTHING. Nothing at all. Only what I hear from my Lord. Now, I am inclined to believe that HE knew more than Luke, seeing as he is the One Luke wrote about... and Luke... was not inspired... but wrote what he was told by others. Given that choice, the One who was there... and the one who talked to others and then wrote what they told him... I think I have to take the former. I am sorry that is a bit difficult for you to understand, but I absolutely understand that. I, too, one time needed earthing man to 'teach' me. Now, I tend to just rely on holy spirit. Seems to have a MUCH better 'track record', IMHO.

  Luke says Christ came back the same way Christ left,yet you're telling me that the Bible lied.

  Methinks I need to take this in part. First, my Lord DID come back the same way he left: he entrusted his spirit to my Father, then his flesh died. His spirit (NOT his flesh) went to the world of the dead to preach to the spirits there (to give them opportunity to put faith in him). Rather than be held in Hades, his spirit (that LEFT) was returned to THIS world... and placed in an earthen vessel... which was now "changed", so that it could be "put off and put on", walk through walls/doors... and ascend. So that his disciples would not concern themselves with his outward appearance, but rather, listen to his VOICE... the vessel(s) he appeared to them in were different. Indeed, they were flesh, but they were only vessels... for the flesh... is of no use at all... other than to contain "treasure"... the spirit.

  Oh, and no, I did not tell you that the Bible "lied"... however, I would direct you to Jeremiah 8:8 and caution you against believing that everything in it is (1) scripture (for it is not); (2) inspired (for it is not); or the truth (for it is not). The Bible is merely a compilation, by EARTHLING MAN... OF scripture, as well as chronologies, histories, songs and records. In addition, the Bible is NOT the Word of God, nor it is the TRUTH. For that Word... IS the Truth. (John 1:1, 14; 14:6; Revelation 19:13)

  Good going..........

  I think you mean that sarcastically, but I cannot imagine why you would... for I mean you no animosity or ridicule...

  You say you're not a witness...

  Well, no, that's not quite right: I say I am not a "Jehovah's WItness"...

  yet you denie everything any basic christian believes.

  I don't know that I agree with that statement... but, well, you did say "basic" christian. By "basic", do you mean "fundamental" christian? If so, I would have to say that perhaps I do deny much of what they believe, but not necessarily everything...

  You see the only people who say they are christians...

  If you mean Jehovah's Witnesses, I must ask you how is that, because I "see" YOU... and your sincerity... and your love for my Lord. Such love does not necessarily make you "right", though. (Acts 18:24-26). I would exhort you, then, to simply approach my... our... Lord... and ask HIM wha the truth is. If your heart is sincere and your purpose for asking "clean", without deceit... he will reply to you. All you need is the FAITH... to hear him.

  yet I know aren't are mormons.

  (Frowning) You mean you know Mormons aren't christians? Is that what you're saying? I am not sure I understand your comment.

  I guess you'd have to be a witnesses.

  Unfortunately, again, if you're referring to a Jehovah's Witness, I have to say you've guessed wrong. Sorry, truly.

  You believe in their Arian teachings.

  Actually, the "teachings" I believe in are neither Jew nor Greek, Aryan nor African... and not necessarily Hebrew, either, or Aramaic. Many of the writings that I have... ummm... reviewed, referred to and investigated are/were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek... or English... but TRULY, I believe in the "teachings" of the SPIRIT... with which there is NO distinction of race, NO partiality. But, surely, as a christian, you know that, yes?

  Plus you're trying very hard to change the subject....

  Er?! Quite the contrary, I am trying VERY hard to stay on track; that's why I tend to these things statement by statement when replying...

  that's a Witnesses trick.

  Now, that's something we both agree on! But I think such a thing is deceitful. If I did not know or did not 'hear', I would either confess that... or remain silent (which is not to be confused with my silence when I believe... or am told... that something is not really worthy of replying to...)

  If the Witness can't defend their heretical theology,they change the subject...

  Yep!

  and argue that others are trying to change the subject.

  Hmmm... does that make YOU a Witness? For that is your argument with me, yes?

  see the subject heading?

  Uh, yes.

  It says it's about Luke 24:39...

  Uh-huh, it does.

  meaning the subject is resurrection,not the perfect or imperfect body......

  Oh! I honestly beg your pardon! I didn't know there were "guidelines". Seriously. (Frowning... again.) You know, dear Frank, sometimes I put a disclaimer at the beginning of my posts so that if I am desiring a certain line of thought folks will know that. Otherwise, it's kind of "open forum" around here: folks respond as they see fit... or as the Spirit "moves" them. For me, it was the latter. Again, I beg your pardon if I took your post in a direction you did not wish. Truly, I apologize if you feel that way.

  One more thing.....before I became a Born-again-Christian I was in the Occult,

  Okay... (whispering) I haven't been born "again"... yet. I am awaiting that time. But I have been "conceived" or "regenerated" by the spirit of God, holy spirit, through Christ, my "eternal father." When I put off my flesh... and put on my spirit body... is when I will have been "born"... again. But that's just me; it may be different for you... (drat this color; can't change it... sorry!)

  then followed the Watchtower..

  Yeah, been there, too! What a "trip", yes? PRAISE JAH... I have been "found"!

  Both Watchtower and the Occult have great references for each other.

  DO they? I wouldn't know... truly.

  So get real...

  Hey, I'm workin' on it... (well, my LORD is workin' on it... on me, rather... trying to get me there... to the "reality"). Unfortunately, I don't think my "time" is just yet...

  ....Jesus Christ is the Everlasting Jehovah God.......

  Okay, now here is where we part "ways", per se. First, there is no "Jehovah" God, for the name of my Father, the Holy One of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob... is JAH... of Armies. (JHVH is JaHVeH, not JeHoVaH - I exhort you to read Psalm 68:4).

  Also, my Lord is not my Father, for MY Father and MY God... are HIS Father and God. He is the SON of God, the "image" of God and the "exact REPRESENTATION of His being." Yet, he is NOT God, but the One whom God has given "all authority", the One who MEDIATES between earthling man and God. He is the "Joseph" through which ALL men must come... to eat... from Pharoah's "grain"... the "living water"... the spirit of God... holy spirit.

  That is why when holy spirit came down upon him, a voice was heard FROM HEAVEN that said, "This is my SON... the beloved... listen TO HIM..." while my Lord himself... was ON EARTH. The Father and the Son are "one", just as the Father and I... are one... by means of the Son.

  Frank, dear, I bid you the greatest of peace... and a good night's sleep.

  YOUR servant... and a slave of Christ,

  SJ
• 

  FrankRaven

  Why is it so hard,"AGuest," to understand what Luke 24:39 says?Can you see it as you read it?It says that Christ said that He was not a spirit as those who think He was.I do not run all over the Bible when I try to explain what is there.Christ clearly says that He was not a Spirit.All can see it...all can hear it,yet one who is blinded by Satan can only see what Satan wishes all those to see.You see that I am a Pauline Apologetic Minister...after saying that which means I don't tip toe around the issues.I don't try to sugar coat to nor do I let things slide.I nedd the facts so I give the facts.

  For those who feel comfortable around an idea that will never work....fine,but you should never tell someone things that don't exists.Russell was a fantasy story teller and the WT is a lier.As long as you support any way shape or form the WT,I can say you're a Watchtower Follower.Besides Russell created the Bible Students..the Judge created the Jehovah Witnesses.

  Peace Be Unto You
• 

  AGuest

  Dearest Frank... peace be to you!

  Dear one, I understand what Luke 24:39 says, truly. When he appeared to his disciples, such ones THOUGHT they were seeing a spirit. My Lord told them that what they were seeing was flesh and bone... and this was true: he had "put on" a "vessel" of flesh and bone. I do not deny that, Frank, not at all.

  I think the issue that we disagree on is whether that flesh was the EXACT same vessel as was laid in the tomb. My understanding from my Lord is that is was NOT, which is why those who first saw him did not recognize him by his APPEARANCE... but by his VOICE (notice, my Lord did not say, "My sheep will know my face," but "my sheep will know my voice").

  The POINT of this is that we are to keep our eyes NOT on the things seen; however, Thomas needed PROOF... something he could SEE... in order to accept that this indeed was the Master. Mary, on the other hand, after hearing him CALL HER NAME... recognized that he was "the same one." Even the two walking with him down the road discerned him after he SPOKE to them. In neither case was his physical appearance such that they could 'see' him. Thomas had vehemently stated his position... that he would NOT believe... unless he saw. Knowing them, knowing ALL of them... my Lord had anticipated this and rather than appearing to them as he did to Saul of Tarsus... (in a light that blinded Saul, for if Saul had seen him "as he really is", his flesh would NOT have been able to withstand it), he PUT ON flesh... for the purpose and BENEFIT of restoring their faith. For their lack thereof could have gone detrimental for them. But... he LOVED them.

  And so, he told Thomas the TRUTH when he said, "Now, because you SEE do you believe? Happy are those who do NOT see... and yet... believe."

  They SHOULDN'T have needed such proof, Frank, just as they shouldn't have denied him (Peter), and ran away and hid (the rest, excluding John). But they were, after all, ISRAEL... who, no matter what they may have seen PREVIOUSLY (the 10 plagues, the incident at the Red Sea, the quail and manna, etc.), no matter what... always seems to need a VISIBLE "representation"... in order to exercise faith.

  And Frank, you are asking ME to need such, too... and I apologize to you, but... I do not... and can not, for I HEAR my Lord when he says, "the flesh is of NO use at all." Thus, it does not matter to me what "form" my Lord might take... and indeed, when he returns and we DO see him "as he really is," many... indeed MOST... will be taken by complete surprise, so that they WILL cry out to the mountains to "fall over" them. I, however, have had the privilege of seeing him in this form, to some great extent, and KNOW... that it his VOICE that I must listen to and recognize. Why? Because during one of these times, I so truly wanted to RUN... but there was no where for me to go. And he helped me "stand still" by telling me, "Listen to my voice... it is me... you know me... I am the same One." Indeed, I was STARTLED... for with regard to what he TRULY looks like... "he will likewise startle many nations." Indeed, when "every eye... see[s] him...," it will be as Isaiah said it, "At him, kings will shut their mouth, because what has NOT been recounted to them... they will actually see." And it AIN'T what you've been told... or seen painted in "pretty" pictures.

  He gives us what we can "bear", Frank, until such time as we can bear more. And Thomas could only "bear" a body of flesh and bone.

  Again, I bid you peace!

  Your servant... and a slave of Christ,

  SJ
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  barry

  The beleif that Jesus didnt have a real body is a gnostic beleif and is a beleif never taught by Christendom. Our Lord had a ressurection body. The Gnostics because of their beleif of the evil nature of matter were vegetarians. Barry