by wannabefree 44 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Perry question. Because of their unbelief God determined that the
Israelites would be punished, thus the 40 years wondering aimlessly
in the desert. God gave them a break, why not the Canaanites.
The story is insane, a loving God would have told the Israelites,
travel 200-300 miles up the coast (it may take you another 10 years)
but that will be your promise land. We don't need all the killing, there is
plenty of land.
they aren't really different from the example that Perry already gave, i.e., the atomic bombings of Japan
Apog - I reject your comparison. They are totally different.
In the scenarios I described the Canaanite army had already been defeated. Yahweh then ordered the soldiers of Jah to specifically single out the women and children to be murdered in cold blood while taking the virgins to be raped as trophies of war.
This is the wisdom, mercy and justice of Perry's god.
I'm still waiting for an answer to this question I asked you on page 1:
Perry, are you going to answer the question: why did YHWH kill children when he claimed killing children is offensive to him?
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Is an honest answer too embarrassing for you too vocalize so you're just going to ignore it?
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Here's what the Bible says about YHWH's view of killing children and his justification for a genocidal campaign against Canaan:
(Jeremiah 7:30, 31)
30 ‘For the sons of Judah have done what is bad in my eyes,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘They have set their disgusting things in the house upon which my name has been called, in order to defile it. 31 And they have built the high places of To ′ pheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hin ′ nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.’
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Obviously that is a bold-faced lie. God condemned the Canaanites and Judeans for killing their children, yet YHWH did the same thing...so he can hardly claim the thought had never "come up into my heart".
Thank you for your comments.
I have come to realize that no matter how much I want to believe in the great story and teachings of Jesus that he can not be separated from the cruel acts of YHWH in the OT. How can you take one without the other?
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ADCMS ... you brought up Jeremiah 7:31, that is another scripture that I never could quite accept either.
IF in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart. were a true statement, how do you explain YHWH requesting Abraham to kill his son as a burnt offering? Even if the claim is made that he never intended for Abraham to carry it to completion, it was still a pretty twisted mind game and the thought certainly did come into his heart for making the request ... and the thought came to his heart because he already planned the sacrifice of his own son.
Also ... why would Abraham think this was something reasonable for YHWH to ask of him? If this was such an alien request for God to make, wouldn't it have been reasonable for Abraham to question the source of this request?
why would Abraham think this was something reasonable for YHWH to ask of him?
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Abraham no doubt had the same mentality as fundamentalists today. No names mentioned (but pay attention, Perry) but the ultra-religious will do the most despicable things....as long as it's their beloved deity who makes the request.
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and you're right...god can hardly claim that sacrificing a child never had "come up into his heart", because he ordered Abraham to do that very thing.
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I came across this article in the 4-1-2007 Watchtower, pp.18-19 which illustrates the idiocy of religious beliefs:
"A Thing That I Had Not Commanded"
"In sharp contrast with the Israelites, the inhabitants of Canaan offered their children as sacrifices to their gods, including the Ammonite god called Molech...
Did such practices please Jehovah God? Decidedly not....Clearly, the practice of offering humans in sacrifice is not from the true God and is no part of pure worship. Human sacrifice in any form is demonic"
Ironically, the very next subheading after stating that human sacrifice is "demonic", is:
"The Ransom Sacrifice of Christ Jesus"
Do you think even one Jehovah's Witness reading that article and studying it at the KH caught the lie and the hypocrisy of this Bible teaching? Not likely.
God gave them a break, why not the Canaanites.
Well, it is precisely because HE CHOSE NOT TO.... as was his right as God. He owed nothing but judgment to the Caananites..... as everyone else. This however, does not prevent the exercise of mercy at times. This is what drives the liberal-indoctrinated mind into insanity. They are living in a round room and trying to find a corner to sit in. They think they are owed all possible mercies and blessings of God, when the opposite is true. They are only owed JUDGMENT. And of course, the minimum requirement of that judgment would be: if they have judged others for something they are guilty of. THAT is justice.
For the prudent, we do not seek justice from God, we seek mercy.
However, I perceive another current at work here in this thread. The watchtower indoctrination program that we were all subjected to conditioned us to view governments as eeeeevillll. The devil runs them all. I can't tell you how much this teaching screwed with my head as a young late-teenage man.
Of course the bible states that the governments are God's minister for justice..... entities to be supported and even to indulge a limited amount of national pride into. The tolerance principles laid down in the NT governed Western Culture for many hundreds of years with a large degree of success by many measures.
But noooooo, governments are evil...... and at the most they are to be tolerated enough to keep the average JW out of jail. JW's have NO respect for the governmental arrangement instituted by God as described in the NT. All this is rejected by the WT. In their minds, they are the only authority that matters.
Additionally, they have NO respect for the providence of God UNLESS the WT says that it is OK. THEY ALONE are the interpreters of Gods wishes; and because they are God's SOLE CHANNEL of communication on earth, if they say that God has changed his mind on something... then by golly you better hop and skip to the tune my darlin' lest you lose all your loved ones. In the JW world, God has NO authority....having given it all to the F&DS. In their minds, they are the only authority that matters.
And, of course; it goes without saying that Christians that use the bible as a FINAL authority on matters of faith are viewed as pathetic imps that are only using the mercies of God as an excuse to indulge into whatever sin they want to. In their minds, they are the only authority that matters.
For many ex-JWs, once they have eliminated the only authority that they have ever recognized [the WT], what's left? Just themselves. The vacuum is filled. In their minds, they are the only authority that matters.
So this brings us to people like Blondie, Cofty, and Shirley who cannot bring themselves to accept the Merriam Webster definition of God. How could they? This goes against their indoctrination.
So, Blondie, Cofty , Shirley.... what is your position on abortion?
Many God-Rejecting liberals rail against God for passing judgment on an entire wicked, murderous community thousands of years ago so that he could acheive a "a greater good" on this earth; yet at the same time they pass judgment on the abortion of children on grounds of personal convenience.... their own personal "greater good".
The bottom line is this: In their minds, they are the only authority that matters.
I became a JW at the age of 20. Through my study, I accepted what I was taught as logical. I remember wondering if I would feel something special when I was baptized (didn't happen). I tried to be a good JW. I believed, but I can honestly say I never "felt" it. I did the work, I became the elder, I walked the walk, talked the talk.
After 25 years, I came to the realization I was wrong and I thought that I was being lead to the truth in Christ ... I wanted to believe that, I tried to accept him for what I hoped he was, but four years later, the faith just isn't there.
IF the Bible is God's Word, I can't accept it because I want it to be, I have to have faith that it is, therefore, I must come to the conclusion that if it is in fact from God, then 2 Thes. 3:2 applies to me.
And, if it is true, I hope the JW's are right about what happens at death, because if Hell believers are right, I suppose the God of Love who commits genocide and devotes those who cannot accept the teachings of the Bible to an eternity of torment will put me there no matter how good I may try to be to my fellow human.
They are only owed JUDGMENT - Perry
This is why christian theism is damaging. To teach a child that they are born evil or broken or sinful is child abuse.
We do not need to apologise for being human. We are not sinners. Your twisted view of humanity is an obscenity.
You justify the order to murder thousands of defenseless women and babies in cold blood. You are a moral cripple.
Perry ... I do appreciate you are a man of faith ... I have seen that in many of your comments ... but when we get into discussions that don't make sense, the unreasonableness shines through. For the past couple of years I have been meeting with a group of men of different Christian faiths and discovered the same thing. Good men, strong faith, but when it comes to topics that don't make sense, they get a little flustered and the excuses start coming out.
You say he didn't give the Caananites a break because "HE CHOSE NOT TO ... as was his right as God". That's the same as JW's saying God CAN know the future but chooses not to. Really? God chooses not to show love because it is his right? He chooses not to be merciful because it is his right? These are nothing but excuses for something that has no explanation. Trying to explain it, in my opinion, makes your cause less believable.
If God is love, he has no right to act unloving. He has no right to not always take the loving and merciful course for all creation.
Perry: So, Blondie, Cofty , Shirley.... what is your position on abortion?
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How about answering the first question before you try to deflect by asking a second question totally unrelated to the subject? You may really think you are answering the question posed to you, Perry, but you are not. And, replying with answers like 'god chose to extend mercy' or 'who are we to question god?' are not answers. The Bible clearly shows god to be a hypocrite and a liar...how do you justify his actions when he so blatantly contradicts himself in his own book (as Christians like you believe it to be)? And, at what point did this discussion switch from Bible accounts to what the dictionary says? Yet another "Perry Deflection" meant to avoid commiting yourself to an answer you don't want to give because it'll make you look more foolish than you already do.
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If you can't or won't answer the simple question, then just be honest and say so.
