Job 42:16-17King James Version (KJV)
16 After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations.
1) Four generations, not one.. I think I need a lie down.
Active JW's, can you defend "THE TRUTH?"
by DATA-DOG 387 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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defender of truth
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DATA-DOG
In case anyone is interested:
DD
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Vanderhoven7
I see at least 3 generations in the pic, but probably 4.
Biblically (gospels) speaking there are only 2 possibile meanings for the word "generation".
1. a group of contemporaries.
2. one set of parents to the next.
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DuvanMuvan
w08 2/15 23-24 'Christ's presence what does it mean to you?' says:
The time period during which “this generation” lives seems to correspond to the period covered by the first vision in the book of Revelation. (Rev. 1:10–3:22) This feature of the Lord’s day extends from 1914 until the last of the faithful anointed ones dies and is resurrected.—See Revelation—Its Grand Climax At Hand! page 24, paragraph 4.
w10 4/15 10-11 'Holy Spirit's role in the outworking of Jehovah's purpose' says:
14 What does this explanation mean to us? Although we cannot measure the exact length of “this generation,” we do well to keep in mind several things about the word “generation”: It usually refers to people of varying ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period; it is not excessively long; and it has an end. (Ex. 1:6) How, then, are we to understand Jesus’ words about “this generation”? He evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end. The fulfillment of the various features of the sign clearly indicate that the tribulation must be near.
On the jw.org online library these are found under Generation: 'understanding clarified (2008)'. Right under 'understanding clarified (1995)'
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heavensgate11
DOT
I understand your looking for simple answers when there is none. As stated before the playing field at JWN community while not all but by most part believe to repatriate a person with their perception of what doctrine or their interpretation of the bible is, will turn you to the dark side.
I’m’ sure I will hear some court jester remarks from DATA DOG or OUTLAW if their not the same, since many here use multiple ID’s.
Looking for an answer is to see the moral of the story with justified eyes. As I stated earlier, don’t follow my words of explanation on what you seek .Look at this insert to understand. I do not believe you’re an idiot as some have suggested. God judges the wicked, that’s not my place. It’s every easy to twist words around to mean something other than what it was intended. Such as insulting the JWN when the insults come from them. If they have accepted you here, than they have gained a brother. Personally I prefer the insults.
However the moral of the story is simple. How alert and spiritually prepared will you be when judgment of GOD comes? Will you be to busy with material wealth, school, relationship etc, etc, or will you heart be received as a faithful servant, just as many before us have proclaimed.
You can also write to the librarian who is much more truthful and helpful to increase you spiritual knowledge instead of corrupting it like it is here. EVE eyes were opened, did she see the truth, or did she see that she had simply been conned.
Yes many if not all the apostles will be in the heavenly Jerusalem with Christ.
The Unfriendly Pursue Selfishness
… 6 A fool's lips bring strife, And his mouth calls for blows. 7 A fool's mouth is his ruin, And his lips are the snare of his soul. 8 The words of a whisperer are like dainty morsels, And they go down into the innermost parts of the body.…Jeremiah
There are many characteristics of the one, true living God that many are totally unaware of, but of all of them, the fact that God tests us in many different ways, as He did those in Bible days, is perhaps the most enlightening. Though denied by some in our day, this indisputable fact that God tests us was readily known in both Old Testament and in New Testament times:
For you, O God, tested us; you refined us like silver (Psa. 66:10).
On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts (1 Th. 2:4).
According to Strong's Concordance, the Hebrew word for "tested" as found in Psa. 66:10 means: to test (espec. Metals); gen. and fig to. investigate: - examine, prove, tempt, try (trial). The Greek word for "tests" as used in 1 Thess. 2:4 carries the following meaning: to test (lit. or fig.); by impl. to approve: - allow, discern, examine, X like, (ap-) prove, try.
To be ever aware of this important fact about God testing us will help us make sense of some of the strange and painful circumstances that Christians sometimes face. How can an all-powerful God, who is love, permit his children to face such situations? The answer is simple, when one realizes that He is a testing God. This means the life we are now living is really a spiritual "test," the very thing that Scripture explicitly states:
Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him (James 1:12).
God Repeatedly Tested The Israelites
We also know from Scripture that the God, who promises the crown of life to those who love him, repeatedly tested the Israelites for different reasons:
Then Moses cried out to the LORD, and the LORD showed him a piece of wood. He threw it into the water, and the water became sweet. There the LORD made a decree and a law for them, and there he tested them (Exo. 15:25).
Then the LORD said to Moses, "I will rain down bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gather enough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions ...." (Exo. 16:4).
Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning" (Exo. 20:20).
Remember how the LORD your God led you all the way in the desert these forty years, to humble you and to test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands (Deut. 8:2).
He gave you manna to eat in the desert, something your fathers had never known, to humble and to test you so that in the end it might go well with you (Deut. 8:16).
In your distress you called and I rescued you, I answered you out of a thundercloud; I tested you at the waters of Meribah. Selah. (Psa. 81:7).
Do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert (Heb. 3:8).
God Tests Our Hearts
Make no mistake about it, God does test our hearts:
I know, my God, that you test the heart and are pleased with integrity. All these things have I given willingly and with honest intent. And now I have seen with joy how willingly your people who are here have given to you (1 Chr. 29:17).
The crucible for silver and the furnace for gold, but the LORD tests the heart (Prov. 17:3).
But, O LORD Almighty, you who judge righteously and test the heart and mind, let me see your vengeance upon them, for to you I have committed my cause (Jer. 11:20).
Sometimes when God tests us the testings can be very mild, such as how to solve a problem:
When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip, "Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?" He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do (John 6:5,6).
Or our tests can be much more severe:
I served the Lord with great humility and with tears, although I was severely tested by the plots of the Jews (Acts 20:19).
[When Paul stated that he was severely tested by the plots of the Jews he was referring to his persecutions (Acts 9:23-25, 29; 14:5-7 cf. 14:19,20; etc.).]
God Tests Us To See If We Love Him
Surprisingly, YHWH, the jealous God tests us (Ex. 20:5; Deut. 4:24; 5:9; etc.) to find out whether we love him with all of our heart:
You must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul (Deut. 13:3).
Please note: according to this Scripture, God could actually use a false prophet for this test! [See our article, Deceived by a False Prophecy.] Furthermore, love for God above all others seems to be connected with the test that God subjected Abraham to:
Some time later God tested Abraham (Gen. 22:1).
By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son (Heb. 11:17).
Abraham's test can only be appreciated when one realizes that Isaac was his miracle child that both Abraham and Sarah longed for and through whom Abraham's ancestry would be blessed. God tested Abraham with him!
God Will Test In Other Ways
Besides the recently cited false prophets, the Lord has also used the devil to put some in prison as a test:
Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death (Rev. 2:10,11).
Moreover, God used heathen nations to test Israel:
I will no longer drive out before them any of the nations Joshua left when he died. I will use them to test Israel and see whether they will keep the way of the LORD and walk in it as their forefathers did (Judg. 2:21,22).
These are the nations the LORD left to test all those Israelites who had not experienced any of the wars in Canaan (he did this only to teach warfare to the descendants of the Israelites who had not had previous battle experience): the five rulers of the Philistines, all the Canaanites, the Sidonians, and the Hivites living in the Lebanon mountains from Mount Baal Hermon to Lebo Hamath. They were left to test the Israelites to see whether they would obey the Lord's commands, which he had given their forefathers through Moses (Judg. 3:1-4).
In Hezekiah's case, God left him to test him:
But when envoys were sent by the rulers of Babylon to ask him about the miraculous sign that had occurred in the land, God left him to test him and to know everything that was in his heart (2 Chr. 32:31).
Job believed that spiritual tests from God come very frequently:
What is man that you make so much of him, that you give him so much attention, that you examine him every morning and test him every moment? (Job 7:17,18)
Job is an example of perseverance (James 5:11). He stedfastly maintained his spiritual integrity and was determined to pass his spiritual tests, even in the very midst of his multiple, painful problems:
But he knows the way that I take; when he has tested me, I will come forth as gold (Job 23:10).
At one point in his life, David too was confident that there was nothing sinful in his own heart that would be revealed during any test:
Though you probe my heart and examine me at night, though you test me, you will find nothing; I have resolved that my mouth will not sin (Psa. 17:3).
David also invited God to test him:
Test me, O LORD, and try me, examine my heart and my mind (Psa. 26:2).
God tests us in the furnace of affliction. As gold gets tested for purity in the heat, God tests people:
See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction (Isa. 48:10).
This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, "They are my people," and they will say, "The LORD is our God" (Zec. 13:9).
The sinful are also tested by God:
Therefore this is what the LORD Almighty says: "See, I will refine and test them, for what else can I do because of the sin of my people?" (Jer. 9:7).
God also tested Jeremiah's own thoughts about Him:
Yet you know me, O LORD; you see me and test my thoughts about you (Jer. 12:3).
Tested, Then Approved
Paul wrote about Apelles who was tested, then approved. Please note: one doesn't get approved until he is first tested!
Greet Apelles, tested and approved in Christ (Rom. 16:10).
Unfortunately, we don't have enough information at this point to know if the test Apelles passed was one from God at a particular time or perhaps from a spiritual leader for some church position such as a deacon:
They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons (1 Tim. 3:10).
Test Every Teaching And Every Teacher
The habitual practice of testing things should be done by every Christian, especially regarding teachings that come their way. The standard for truth for all Christian doctrine is the Holy Scriptures (2 Tim. 3:16,17). Therefore, don't receive any teaching that isn't taught in the Holy Scripture:
Test everything. Hold on to the good (1 Th. 5:21).
The Apostle John gives us a specific reason why we should always test teachings that we hear and not just gullibly accept them. This is extremely important for us in our day to take to heart, since much of what comes over the TV, radio, in books and on the internet does NOT line up with the Holy Scriptures! One prime example of this is the teaching of once saved, always saved. John wrote:
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world (1 John 4:1).
Besides false prophets there have also been false apostles that have plaqued the church. Certainly, many have been deceived by them over the years (Mt. 24:11, 24; 2 Cor. 11:13; etc.). The Lord Jesus commended a church group for testing those that claimed to be apostles and found that they were not (Rev. 2:2). There are also false apostles in our day that need to be identified, so that their deceptions won't spiritually hurt people.
I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false (Rev. 2:2).
Testing Develops Perseverance
One of the benefits of our faith being tested is that it develops perseverance:
Because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance (James 1:3).
The developement of our perseverance, when our faith is tested, is assumed, if one doesn't fall away after he believes, as Jesus taught could happen. Jesus taught against eternal security, which is also a test in itself:
Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away (Luke 8:13).
Testing Through Various Persecutions
As mentioned earlier, persecutions are tests. Sometimes these tests, through persecutions, can come in verbal form or by being excluded from the company of others:
Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets (Luke 6:22,23).
Since all of mankind naturally desires to have the acceptance and approval of others, such forms of persecution, such as being excluded or insulted, can be very painful and severe at times! Therefore, loneliness to some degree is a guarantee for all who faithfully live godly, since this is a ramification of being excluded.
THE LAST GENERATION, BEFORE THE RETURN OF CHRIST, WILL BE UNIVERSALLY TESTED:
Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth (Rev. 3:10).
According to Scripture, a test is coming for all who live on the earth. This test referred to in this verse is more directly detailed in Revelation 13 and 14. To be more concise, a world ruler, called in the Scriptures, the antichrist (1 John 2:18), will be given power to conquer the saints. At that point in time, the powerful prayers of the saints won't bring deliverance! This point alone is vitally important to remember.
He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation (Rev. 13:7)
A mark will be issued at this time that one must have to buy or sell anything:
He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name (Rev. 13:16,17).
To get this mark one must worship the breathing/speaking image of the antichrist or face death:
Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed (Rev. 13:14,15).
For the Christian, to refuse the mark of the beast, during this test that will come upon the whole world, will require faithfulness to the point of death:
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast -- all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. He who has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints (Rev. 13:8-10).
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice:"If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus (Rev. 14:9-12).
The Ultimate Test
Dear reader, you have been tested by God throughout your lifetime. In fact, you have probably been tested recently and will again be subjected to some sort of test, perhaps with some pain or discomfort in the near future. But if you are alive during the last generation the ultimate test of faithfulness to God will come through a mark that is needed to buy and sell; but woe to all who fail that particular test and take the mark! This is true even if one was truly saved before he took the mark! [See our article on the Mark of the Beast.]
Scripture clearly gives us the formula for victory at this time of testing:
They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death (Rev. 12:11).
The final end of the antichrist (known also as "the beast") and his companion in evil deeds, the false prophet, are clearly given:
But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur (Rev 19:20).
Please note: the people who receive the mark of the beast will be deluded to do such through miracles! Specifically, some of the miracles are fire coming down out of heaven (Rev. 13:13) and a statue of the antichrist speaking (Rev. 13:15)! Dear reader, all miracles are NOT from God! Some miracles do come through demons (Rev. 16:14). [See our article on Miracles -- Two Sources.]
In Conclusion
In conclusion, God tests mankind frequently. That means this life is a test (James 1:12; Lk. 8:13; Rev. 2:10,11; etc.) and only the overcomer will inherit the kingdom, while all others will be thrown into the lake of fire:
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars -- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death" (Rev. 21:1-8).
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DATA-DOG
Just like the Elder said at the DC, " If you don't understand a current "adjustment" in the Slave's teaching, maybe it's Jehovah testing you."
Yep, the God of truth likes to test people by seeing if they blindly follow the interpretations of religious leaders. Never mind that Jesus said that the hour is coming when his followers would worship in Spirit and Truth, and you must love Truth. I wonder it GOD agrees with "The Walsh Trial"???
This is Hayden Covington, WTBTS Lawyer being questioned under oath...
Q. Is it not vital to speak the truth on religious matters?
A. It certainly is.
Q. You have promulgated - forgive the word - false prophecy?
A. We have. I do not think we have promulgated false prophecy, there have been statements that were erroneous, that is the way I put it, and mistaken.
Q. It was promulgated as a matter which must be believed by all members of Jehovah's witnesses that the Lord's Second Coming took place in 1874?
(A short discussion of evidence given by Fred W Franz about 1874 takes place here.)
Q. That was the publication of false prophecy?
A. That was the publication of a false prophecy, it was a false statement or an erroneous statement in fulfilment of a prophecy that was false or erroneous.
Q. And that had to be believed by the whole of Jehovah's Witnesses?
A. Yes, because you must understand, we must have unity, we cannot have disunity with a lot of people going every way, an army is supposed to march in step.
Q. Back to the point now, a false prophecy was promulgated?
A. I agree to that.
Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovah's witnesses?
A. That is correct.
Q. If a member of Jehovah's witnesses took the view himself that that prophecy was wrong, and said so, would he be disfellowshipped?
A. Yes, if he said so, and kept on persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erroneous, and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across, then there is a disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching ...... Our purpose is to have unity.
Q. Unity at all costs?
A. Unity at all costs, because we believe and are sure that Jehovah God is using our organisation,the governing body of our organisation, to direct it, even though mistakes are made from time to time.
Q. A unity based on an enforced acceptance of false prophecy?
A. That is conceded to be true.
Q. And the person who expresses his view, as you say, that it was wrong, and was disfellowshipped, would be in breach of the covenant, if he was baptised?
A. That is correct.
Q. And as you said yesterday expressly, would be worthy of death?
A. I think....
Q. Would you say yes or no?
A. I will answer yes, unhesitatingly.
Q. Do you call that religion?
A. It certainly is.
Q. Do you call that Christianity?
A. I certainly do.DOT, I like this series called "The Channel of God." Here is part #1
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Vanderhoven7
D-D, the YouTube URL is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLOxgkTnLb0&feature=player_embedded
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DATA-DOG
Heavensgate,
Could you please, name one truth that I have corrupted? Can you please, prove that I use multiple I.Ds?? What does this mean, " I understand your looking for simple answers when there is none. As stated before the playing field at JWN community while not all but by most part believe to repatriate a person with their perception of what doctrine or their interpretation of the bible is, will turn you to the dark side."
Is the darkside where people who disagree with incorrect interpretations of men and corporations go???
I liked your last post for the most part, minus the allegations.
DD
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DuvanMuvan
Heavensgate I think you kind of missed the point. It isn't fair for you to tell people like dot that people like data dog and outlaw are only on this site to slander the jws and in the same way it isn't fair for anyone else who is an ex jw to constantly bombard people that have legitimate doubts with ttatt. It should be left to them to decide where and whether or not they want to look for the answers for themselves.
You telling someone that their question doesn't really matter when looking at "the moral of the story" and saying that they need to be prepared for the judgement of god doesn't address the problem. In fact you still haven't answered the question yourself unless I've missed something then I apologise. Whether or not dot is really in the truth is the real moral of the story. Im gonna be honest and say that I never really paid attention in the meetings so I'm not sure if this is true. But didn't Jesus (or maybe it was Paul) say to make the truth your own or at least to seek the truth? Well how could someone do that without considering all the facts themselves?
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wizzstick
Job 42:16-17King James Version (KJV)
16 After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations.
1) Four generations, not one.. I think I need a lie down.DoT,
As I posted on a previous thread:
They may try and use Exodus 1:6 but actually the Bible doesn't help them. Genesis 50:22-26 says (emphasis mine):
22 And Joseph continued to dwell in Egypt, he and the household of his father, and Joseph lived for 110 years. 23 Joseph saw the third generation of E′phra·im’s sons, also the sons of Ma′chir, Ma·nas′seh’s son. They were born upon Joseph’s knees. 24 At length Joseph said to his brothers: “I am dying, but God will without fail turn his attention to you, and he will certainly bring you up out of this land to the land about which he swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.” 25 So Joseph made the sons of Israel swear, saying: “God will without fail turn his attention to you. You must take my bones up out of here.”26 And Joseph died at the age of 110, and they had him embalmed, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt.
So what do we see?
a) Joseph was still alive when people were living for much longer (the dwelling for 70-80 years hadn't kicked in apparantly) so the WT are making a comparison to a time when people lived longer.
b) Joseph saw the third generation of his son, Ephraim, son's. So that's actually 4 generations that overlap across a 110 year period. Not 1 generation made up two overlapping groups over 100 years...