Who Mediates?

by Englishman 37 Replies latest jw friends

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    Oh for crying out loud. How is this suppose to possibly effect anyone prior to armeggdon? If there is some kind of new insight here shouldnt it be applied to AFTER we have been saved?
    Otherwise we would have to be praying through the 144,000 and say "pass that up please" And what happened to only approaching the Father through HIS SON in order to be heard. So there is really no point in even bothering to pray at all. Its all in vien.
    Arent we missing a few scriptures, like the ones that would say, anyone who wants thier prayers to be heard by the Father must approach him only through His son our saviour...except for you guys.
    Blah Blah Blah.....

    http://www.geocities.com/plum_crazy22002/LinksReligion.html?1021363884840

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    G'day Eman,

    Mrs Ozzie is like many (if not most) Witnesses who believed that the WTS taught that Jesus was their Mediator. That's the way she taught her children. Imagine her surprise when I showed her what she was supposed to believe as a Dub. Needless to say it had a profound impact on her.

    Here are the references from The Watchtower that show that the official teaching of JDubs is that Jesus is not their Mediator.

    Also, it is to the spirit-anointed Christians who will rule in that kingdom that most of the Christian Greek Scriptures is directed, including the promises of everlasting life. The Watchtower June 15, 1974 page 376 Serve with Eternity in View
    Questions from Readers
    Is Jesus the “mediator” only for anointed Christians?
    The term “mediator” occurs just six times in the Christian Greek Scriptures and Scripturally is always used regarding a formal covenant.

    Moses was the “mediator” of the Law covenant made between God and the nation of Israel. (Gal. 3:19, 20) Christ, though, is the “mediator of a new covenant” between Jehovah and spiritual Israel, the “Israel of God” that will serve as kings and priests in heaven with Jesus. (Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24; Gal. 6:16) At a time when God was selecting those to be taken into that new covenant, the apostle Paul wrote that Christ was the “one mediator between God and men.” (1 Tim. 2:5) Reasonably Paul was here using the word “mediator” in the same way he did the other five times, which occurred before the writing of 1 Timothy 2:5, referring to those then being taken into the new covenant for which Christ is “mediator.” So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the “mediator” only for anointed Christians.

    The new covenant will terminate with the glorification of the remnant who are today in that covenant mediated by Christ. The “great crowd” of “other sheep” that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the “little flock” of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant. During the millennium Jesus Christ will be their king, high priest and judge. For more detailed information, see Aid to Bible Understanding, pages 1129 and 1130 under “Mediator”; also God’s “Eternal Purpose” Now Triumphing for Man’s Good, page 160, paragraph 10; also The Watchtower issues of February 15, 1966, pages 105 through 123; November 15, 1972, pages 685 and 686, under the subheading “Leading the Way to a New Covenant”; and April 1, 1973, pages 198 and 199, under the subheading “The New Covenant.” The Watchtower April 1, 1979 page 31

    12 So Jesus Christ in heaven is the Mediator between God and the spiritual Israelites, while these are still in the flesh as men and women. The Watchtower November 15, 1979 page 24 Benefiting from "One Mediator Between God and Men"
    Questions From Readers
    • Is Jesus the Mediator only for spirit-anointed Christians or for all mankind, since 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 speaks of him as the “mediator” who “gave himself a corresponding ransom for all”?

    The Bible contains both basic teachings and deep truths, which are solid food for study. One such study involves Jesus Christ’s role as Mediator. The apostle Paul wrote: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.”—1 Timothy 2:5, 6.

    To grasp what Paul is saying, we must first appreciate that the Bible sets out two destinies for faithful humans: (1) perfect life on a restored earthly paradise and (2) life in heaven for Christ’s “little flock,” numbering 144,000. (Luke 12:32; Revelation 5:10; 14:1-3) Christendom teaches that all good people go to heaven, which unscriptural position has colored the general view, so that Jesus is considered a go-between for all such people. What, though, does the Bible indicate?

    The Greek word me·si'tes, used for “mediator,” means ‘one who finds himself between two bodies or parties.’ It was a ‘many-sided technical term of Hellenistic legal language.’ Professor Albrecht Oepke (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament) says that me·si'tes was “one of the most varied technical terms in the vocabulary of Hellen[istic] law.”

    But why does the Bible use a legal term for Jesus’ mediatory role? As background, consider what Paul wrote about God’s Law given to Israel assembled before Mount Sinai: “It was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.” (Galatians 3:19, 20) That mediator was Moses. He was the intermediary agent between Jehovah and the fleshly nation of Israel. An agent for what? For establishing a covenant, or legal contract, between God and the nation.

    Does this mean that there is a specific legal sense involved in Jesus’ role as Mediator? Yes. Note Paul’s comment at Hebrews 8:6. After speaking about the tabernacle and other typical representations under the Law covenant, he wrote: “Jesus has obtained a more excellent public service, so that he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established upon better promises.” The “better covenant” was the new covenant, which replaced the covenant mediated by Moses. (Hebrews 8:7-13) The new covenant was “legally established.” It laid the basis for some of Christ’s followers, beginning with the apostles, to gain “entry into the holy place,” heaven itself.—Hebrews 9:24; 10:16-19.
    There are other indications too of the legal nature of Jesus’ role as Mediator of the “new covenant.” Commenting on God’s promise at Psalm 110:4, Paul wrote: “To that extent also Jesus has become the one given in pledge [en'gy·os] of a better covenant.” (Hebrews 7:22) This is the only Biblical use of the word en'gy·os. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology says: “The engyos guaranteed that a legal obligation would be carried out.” So Jesus as Mediator of the new covenant serves as a legal pledge that “a better hope” would be realized.—Hebrews 7:19.

    Elsewhere Paul uses yet another word having a legal sense, ar·ra·bon', translated “token.” The same dictionary says: “The Gk. word arrab_on . . . is a legal concept from the language of business and trade.” Note how Paul used this legal term: “He who has anointed us is God. He has also put his seal upon us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts.” (2 Corinthians 1:21, 22) Both other occurrences of ar·ra·bon' also deal with God’s anointing of Christians with spirit, bringing them an ‘everlasting reward or inheritance in the heavens’ as spirit sons of God.—2 Corinthians 5:1, 5; Ephesians 1:13, 14; see Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures.

    Clearly, then, the new covenant is not a loose arrangement open to all mankind. It is a carefully arranged legal provision involving God and anointed Christians.

    This should help us to understand 1 Timothy 2:5, 6. Here the reference to “mediator” was made after the five other occurrences of the word in letters written earlier. Hence, Timothy would have understood Jesus’ mediatorship to be His legal role connected with the new covenant. The Pastoral Epistles, by Dibelius and Conzelmann, acknowledges that at 1 Timothy 2:5 ‘the term “mediator” has a legal significance,’ and “although in this passage, in contrast to Heb 8:6, the [covenant] is not mentioned, one must nevertheless presuppose the meaning ‘mediator of the covenant,’ as the context shows.” Professor Oepke observes that 1 Timothy 2:5 presents Jesus as “the attorney and negotiator.”

    A modern-day illustration may help to clarify this, especially if you are not a spirit-anointed Christian. Think of a legal case in which an attorney is involved. His role may be not so much that of a lawyer arguing for justice as that of one who is mediating or bringing about a legal contract acceptable to and beneficial to two parties. Of course, you are not in that legal case, so in that sense he is not serving as your attorney. Yet he may be your very close friend who in other ways gives you valuable help.

    Sometimes an attorney’s work produces results that benefit many others. So it is with Jesus’ legal accomplishments as Mediator of the new covenant. It produces what the Law covenant did not, a heavenly “kingdom of priests.” (Exodus 19:6; 1 Peter 2:9) Thereafter anointed Christians in the Kingdom will work with Jesus from heaven to bring a blessing to “all nations of the earth.”—Genesis 22:18.

    The people of all nations who have the hope of everlasting life on earth benefit even now from Jesus’ services. Though he is not their legal Mediator, for they are not in the new covenant, he is their means of approaching Jehovah. Christ said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) All who will gain life on earth must direct their prayers to Jehovah through Jesus. (John 14:13, 23, 24) Jesus also serves as a compassionate High Priest who is able to apply in their behalf the benefits of his sacrifice, allowing them to gain forgiveness and eventual salvation.—Acts 4:12; Hebrews 4:15.

    Consequently, 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 is not using “mediator” in the broad sense common in many languages. It is not saying that Jesus is a mediator between God and all mankind. Rather, it refers to Christ as legal Mediator (or, “attorney”) of the new covenant, this being the restricted way in which the Bible uses the term. Jesus is also a corresponding ransom for all in that covenant, both Jews and Gentiles, who will receive immortal life in heaven. The apostle John referred to these at 1 John 2:2. But he indicated that others too will receive the benefit of Christ’s sacrifice: “He is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.”

    Those of ‘the whole world’ are all who will gain eternal life in a restored earthly paradise. Millions of such approved servants of God now have that earthly hope. They view Jesus as their High Priest and King through whom they can daily gain approach to Jehovah. They rely on Jesus’ ransom, which is available to them, just as it will be to men such as Abraham, David, and John the Baptizer when these are resurrected. (Matthew 20:28) Thus, Christ’s sacrifice will lead to everlasting life for all obedient mankind. The Watchtower August 15, 1989 pages 30-1

    Cheers,
    Ozzie

    "If our hopes for peace are placed in the hands of imperfect people, they are bound to evaporate."

    - Ron Hutchcraft Surviving the Storms of Stress

  • Will Power
    Will Power
    But why does the Bible use a legal term for Jesus’ mediatory role?

    So that the legal representation of the WatchTower Society
    would be more readily accepted.
    and
    we must first appreciate that the Bible sets out two destinies for faithful humans: (1) perfect life on a restored earthly paradise and (2) life in heaven for Christ’s “little flock,” numbering 144,000.

    So DISREGARD what is written and stressed in the bible about there being only ONE hope and to be careful you are not mislead by false christs (those putting themselves in Christ's place) with tricky slick words to convince you otherwise. the is ONE HOPE, ONE LORD, ONE SAVIOUR, ONE NAME BY WHICH WE ARE SAVED
    The bible also says that this saviour is the same yesterday, today, and forever

    Don't read the bible, you'll get confused, only the WT & Awake! can explain the deep things of God or is it things of the god of the deep! That god is so full of mischief!

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Also, it is to the spirit-anointed Christians who will rule in that kingdom that most of the Christian Greek Scriptures is directed, including the promises of everlasting life. The Watchtower June 15, 1974 page 376 Serve with Eternity in View
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ok If this was literally the way we were supposed to have been taught all these years then why were we all not aware of it?

    Were they teaching from the platform and skipping over this?


    Life sucks...get a helmet
  • MoeJoJoJo
    MoeJoJoJo

    Very interesting thread.
    When I first clicked on it, I thought it said "Who MediTates?"

    -You can lead a fool to wisdom, but you can't make him think.

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    So true, so true.... that's what prompted me to post this back in March, just before the annual Memorial travesty:

    Hi all,
    With the pre-Memorial drums beating through Dubland, it brings to my mind how the JW insistence on a literal reading of the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14 has poisoned their entire outlook of the New Testament and the teachings of Christ.

    Although they're the most aggressive proselytizers of Christendom, it's no wonder they've cooked up a host of specious rationalizations to demur on invitations to participate in public debates: they must know that their position on this bedrock teaching of Christianity, i.e. that Jesus died and was raised for ALL and in his position of hevenly glory, intercedes on their behalf, is indefensible.

    There's no question that any attempt by JWs to defend their ludicrous teaching in a public forum would subject them to embarassment and well-deserved ridicule, and expose their cultishess.

    And this is but the tip of the proverbial iceberg: look what the literal 144,000 does to eviscerate the power of Jesus illustration of the Sheep and the Goats; it compels JWs to equivocate on other crystal clear Christian concepts, i.e the sonship of God and leading of the Holy Spirit. enjoyed by all faithful believers.

    While liberal-minded JW apologists may well reason that they can afford to quietly withhold judgement on such fanciful teachings as The Faithful and Discreet Slave and the chronological significance of the modern dates 1914, 1919 1935, etc., this one is far more serious: it puts faithful JWs in the position of having to deny Jesus mediatorship over them under pain of expulsion.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

  • Will Power
    Will Power
    Ok If this was literally the way we were supposed to have been taught all these years then why were we all not aware of it?

    This is what belonging to a cult does to people. You think you think one way, but really you've been trained for something else.

    Bet every one who was a JW (the ones that still are do not have hindsight), would swear on a stack of bibles that their bible trained conscience would always be their guide to help make the the right decisions. They would say they do not protect the WT. The would say (cause this board is living proof) that they follow God, not men, if these men have lied they should be out, etc, etc,

    But, we know different. What needs protection? What is getting protection?
    double think, double speak.

    Jehovah's Witness Org. = the Masters of Deception.

  • Grunt
    Grunt

    What is most sad about this, is the reaction you get when you tell a Witness that this is their belief. At first they deny it, usually without really knowing what verse they are quoting they will quote a paraphrase of:

    1 Tim. 2 5-6: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all

    As though their being aware of that scripture means it IS what the Society teaches. When you actually give the quotes from the WT and PROVE that the WT is teaching the opposite of what they have just said they really believe, and they are convinced it really is the view from New York.....THEY SWITCH. On the spot. Without reservation. When put with their back to the wall, either the Society is wrong or you have to give up Jesus as your mediator....they give him up.

    "Ok, he is not the mediator for me. The 144,000 or whomever the Society says, that is ok with me. Back to something important, We are the only people with Jehovah's Name, the ONLY people teaching the same message around the world, the only people going door to door!"

    Like teaching the same lie, in the name of God, around the world, door to door, makes it better. Heartbreaking. There is a book called "Apostles of Denial" and the title has them pegged pretty good. It is not what they DO believe, it is what they DON'T that they are proudest of. Freddy Franz once said not every Tom, Dick or Harry could be in the new covenant. Their arrogance wants them to take back the New Covenant and keep it for themselves. As they say it:

    "Clearly, then, the new covenant is not a loose arrangement open to all mankind"

  • blondie
    blondie

    Beliefs most JWs can't explain

    1. Generation (how long)
    2. Alternative service (permissible?)
    3. Blood fractions (what)
    4. Mediator (whose)
    5. Separating of the Sheep and the Goats (when)
    6. King of the North (who)
    7. Disgusting thing standing in a holy place (when)
    8. Voting (permissible?)
    9. Christian Jubilee (1,000 Year Reign?)

  • RR
    RR

    It's a trickle down blessing. God, Jesus, 144,000, JWdom.

    Take a good fellas and fellettes. Jesus mediates between the anointed and Jehovah. The Society tells rank and file, without actually saying it, WE mediate between you and Jesus. Sounds like shades of Catholicism.

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